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Little got the news this morning

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Postby wrveres » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:33 am

I found this to be a very interesting read ..........

Dumping a winner often backfires
October 31, 2003

Grady Little managed Boston to the postseason this year, but he won't get a chance to repeat in 2004.

Fired by the Red Sox on Monday, Little became the 11th manager to be replaced - either by his choice or that of his club - after taking a major league team to the postseason.


And history isn't promising for the Red Sox.

Only four of the previous 10 teams that changed managers after a postseason appearance returned to the playoffs the next year. Five of the six teams that didn't return to the postseason didn't even compile a winning record.

Dusty Baker was pushed out in San Francisco a year ago after taking the Giants to the World Series. With Felipe Alou replacing Baker, the Giants won the National League West, improving from 95 to 100 wins, but this time they were knocked off in the first round by Florida.

Davey Johnson resigned as manager of the Baltimore Orioles only hours before the Nov. 7, 1997, announcement that he had been selected American League manager of the year. Club owner Peter Angelos had said Johnson would return in 1998, but after the Orioles were knocked off by Cleveland in the AL Championship Series, Angelos refused to give Johnson a vote of confidence, so the manager decided to take a hike. The Orioles have not compiled a winning record since and have finished in fourth place in the AL East six consecutive seasons.

Johnson had been let go in Cincinnati after the 1995 season despite producing two consecutive division titles. Then-Reds owner Marge Schott was aghast when she learned Johnson was living with his girlfriend, whom he later married. The Reds slipped to 81-81 in 1996 and haven't been to the postseason since.

Bobby Cox resigned in Toronto after leading the Blue Jays to their first postseason appearance in 1985. Cox wanted to return to Atlanta, where he previously had been manager, and Braves owner Ted Turner wanted him back. Turner made Cox the team's general manger.

Toronto slipped to a fourth-place finish in 1986 but won four division titles and two World Series (1992-93) during the next eight seasons.

Gene Mauch added to a career of frustration in 1982 when his California Angels lost the ALCS, then a best-of-five series, despite winning the first two games against Milwaukee. Denied once again the pennant he failed to win in 26 seasons as a big-league manager, Mauch resigned, but he returned two years later, after the Angels had failed to produce a winning record in successive seasons. He took the Angels back to the postseason in 1986, only to suffer another disappointment. The Angels built a three-games-to- one lead in the ALCS, now a best-of-seven series, and were within one strike of closing it out before David Henderson's home run sparked Boston to three consecutive wins and the AL title.

Dick Howser was the one manager who walked out on New York Yankees boss George Steinbrenner. After Howser led the Yankees to 103 wins in 1980, Steinbrenner unloosed one of his postseason blowups when Kansas City swept the Yankees in the ALCS. Interestingly, in August 1981, Howser was hired to manage the Royals and guided them to a world championship in 1985. The Yankees, meanwhile, made the playoffs in 1981 but didn't return for 12 years.

Yogi Berra was fired after the Yankees lost a seven-game World Series to St. Louis in 1964. The Yankees replaced him with Cardinals manager Johnny Keane, which turned into a major misstep; the Yankees promptly embarked on a string of 11 years in which they failed to reach the postseason.

Ralph Houk had been replaced as Yankees manager the previous off-season. Despite winning 309 regular-season games and three AL pennants in three years, Houk was moved upstairs to replace general manager Roy Haney. When the Yankees lost 16 of their first 20 games in 1966, though, Houk dumped Keane and returned to the Yankees dugout.

Casey Stengel was let go by the Yankees after losing the 1960 World Series in Pittsburgh in seven games. Yankees ownership believed Stengel, then 70, had grown too old. Stengel resurfaced in 1962, though, as the first manager of the expansion New York Mets.

Chuck Dressen forced his own departure from Brooklyn after the 1953 season. After winning two successive NL pennants, Dressen challenged the refusal of Dodgers owner Walt O'Malley to give the manager more than a one-year contract. Dressen wound up managing in the minor leagues in Oakland in 1954, and O'Malley hired an unknown, Walter Alston, under whose guidance the Dodgers dropped from 105 wins in 1953 to 92 in his first season. But Alston became a fixture through 23 one-year contracts, winning seven NL pennants and two world championships
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Postby Madison » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:38 am

That was a very interesting read. Thanks Wrveres! ;-D
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Postby Transmogrifier » Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:54 am

wrveres wrote:I found this to be a very interesting read ..........

Dumping a winner often backfires
October 31, 2003

Grady Little managed Boston to the postseason this year, but he won't get a chance to repeat in 2004.

Fired by the Red Sox on Monday, Little became the 11th manager to be replaced - either by his choice or that of his club - after taking a major league team to the postseason.


And history isn't promising for the Red Sox.

Only four of the previous 10 teams that changed managers after a postseason appearance returned to the playoffs the next year. Five of the six teams that didn't return to the postseason didn't even compile a winning record.

Dusty Baker was pushed out in San Francisco a year ago after taking the Giants to the World Series. With Felipe Alou replacing Baker, the Giants won the National League West, improving from 95 to 100 wins, but this time they were knocked off in the first round by Florida.

Davey Johnson resigned as manager of the Baltimore Orioles only hours before the Nov. 7, 1997, announcement that he had been selected American League manager of the year. Club owner Peter Angelos had said Johnson would return in 1998, but after the Orioles were knocked off by Cleveland in the AL Championship Series, Angelos refused to give Johnson a vote of confidence, so the manager decided to take a hike. The Orioles have not compiled a winning record since and have finished in fourth place in the AL East six consecutive seasons.

Johnson had been let go in Cincinnati after the 1995 season despite producing two consecutive division titles. Then-Reds owner Marge Schott was aghast when she learned Johnson was living with his girlfriend, whom he later married. The Reds slipped to 81-81 in 1996 and haven't been to the postseason since.

Bobby Cox resigned in Toronto after leading the Blue Jays to their first postseason appearance in 1985. Cox wanted to return to Atlanta, where he previously had been manager, and Braves owner Ted Turner wanted him back. Turner made Cox the team's general manger.

Toronto slipped to a fourth-place finish in 1986 but won four division titles and two World Series (1992-93) during the next eight seasons.

Gene Mauch added to a career of frustration in 1982 when his California Angels lost the ALCS, then a best-of-five series, despite winning the first two games against Milwaukee. Denied once again the pennant he failed to win in 26 seasons as a big-league manager, Mauch resigned, but he returned two years later, after the Angels had failed to produce a winning record in successive seasons. He took the Angels back to the postseason in 1986, only to suffer another disappointment. The Angels built a three-games-to- one lead in the ALCS, now a best-of-seven series, and were within one strike of closing it out before David Henderson's home run sparked Boston to three consecutive wins and the AL title.

Dick Howser was the one manager who walked out on New York Yankees boss George Steinbrenner. After Howser led the Yankees to 103 wins in 1980, Steinbrenner unloosed one of his postseason blowups when Kansas City swept the Yankees in the ALCS. Interestingly, in August 1981, Howser was hired to manage the Royals and guided them to a world championship in 1985. The Yankees, meanwhile, made the playoffs in 1981 but didn't return for 12 years.

Yogi Berra was fired after the Yankees lost a seven-game World Series to St. Louis in 1964. The Yankees replaced him with Cardinals manager Johnny Keane, which turned into a major misstep; the Yankees promptly embarked on a string of 11 years in which they failed to reach the postseason.

Ralph Houk had been replaced as Yankees manager the previous off-season. Despite winning 309 regular-season games and three AL pennants in three years, Houk was moved upstairs to replace general manager Roy Haney. When the Yankees lost 16 of their first 20 games in 1966, though, Houk dumped Keane and returned to the Yankees dugout.

Casey Stengel was let go by the Yankees after losing the 1960 World Series in Pittsburgh in seven games. Yankees ownership believed Stengel, then 70, had grown too old. Stengel resurfaced in 1962, though, as the first manager of the expansion New York Mets.

Chuck Dressen forced his own departure from Brooklyn after the 1953 season. After winning two successive NL pennants, Dressen challenged the refusal of Dodgers owner Walt O'Malley to give the manager more than a one-year contract. Dressen wound up managing in the minor leagues in Oakland in 1954, and O'Malley hired an unknown, Walter Alston, under whose guidance the Dodgers dropped from 105 wins in 1953 to 92 in his first season. But Alston became a fixture through 23 one-year contracts, winning seven NL pennants and two world championships


WR... I have to know: You always seem to be defending Little, do you think he should have been retained? If so, what is your rationale?
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Postby wrveres » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:45 pm

wrveres wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:
Fire-Rescue-Diver wrote:I am intrigued by the talk of Jerry Remy taking the helm. Would be nice to see an old Sox farm hand give it a whirl.


Wasn't Little an old Sox farm hand?


Yepp..then he had a great run as a manager for the organization for a couple of season, got to game 7, made a difficult decision, and stuck with his "best" pitcher, and got his ass handed to him by the locals. If not Grady, then who would the Sox have to point fingers at. Surely wouldn't be Pedro or Manny? Even though their karma cost them the ............ :-)



here for starters
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Postby wrveres » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:20 pm

Bottom line is this .....
If his "Best Pitcher" gets out of the inning, He still has his job.
Bottomline!!! spin it anyway you want.

Pedro failing simply gave you, ... your crab ..... :-)
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Postby Transmogrifier » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:21 pm

OK, let's forget game 7. Do you think Grady really is a good manager? You could search this board and come up with scores of stupid decisions he has made. Such as pitching to Thome against the Phils, bring in Embree to face Thome (Embree has one pitch, a straight fastball that lefties kill). How about bringing in Thome to face Durazo in the ALDS (again, Embree can't get lefties out well)?

Overall, he couldn't handle the bullpen. He didn't want to pitch Williamson because he had a cold sore--a sign he was nervous. He didn't hold a hitters meeting before the ALDS. He ignored data about Nick Johnson changing his swing midseason, never passing the info on to his pitching coach. I could go on. Aren't these signs that the ALCS decision was representative? Not just an anomaly?
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Postby wrveres » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:35 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:OK, let's forget game 7. Do you think Grady really is a good manager? You could search this board and come up with scores of stupid decisions he has made.
I could do this with any manager ... lets name 1, Jimy Williams. (44 cafe hits). how many of those do you think are positive. Should we go look at La Russa? 8-o
Transmogrifier wrote:Overall, he couldn't handle the bullpen.


lol.... you must mean that vaunted ..... "Bullpen by Commitee" that he started with ...
Question? .. If my arch rival is the Yankees, why would I trade for the one "Closer" that they (yankees) own? Especially, as you say, baseball is about matchups. You can't create a revolving door in the bullpen and then say ... "The manager can't handle the bullpen"

I won't even get into his personnel handling .. (excellent)
The bottom line is this...
If Pedro gets out of the inning, Grady has a job, .... Today!
The problem is that Theo, made "this" decision in the spring. Grady never had a chance. IMO.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:04 pm

Hold up. This probably isn't the proper forum, but the Sox never wanted a "bullpen by committee" --that's the bastardization by the media of what Bill James wants to do.

The idea is this (and I won't rehash the whole thing): The team should have a Relief Ace who is brought in at the most important time of the game. This relief ace shouldn't pitch the bottom of the ninth with a three-run lead just to get a stat (saves). Instead, the ace should be brought in at the most important time, which is the manager's job in deciding. Say it's the seventh inning, bases are loaded with none out; you're up by one. Perfect time for your ace. This is like Rob Neyer complaining about the Yankees never bringing in Rivera in game four. They lost that game, but never brought in Rivera, their best pitcher. A sin.

This is what the Sox tried to do, but Grady couldn't figure out how to work it. I still like the idea, but we need better personnel and a better person to manage it.

Now, the Kim trade I won't get into. That had nothing to do with Grady. Maybe that's your point, but his explosion was against the A's, not the Yanks. Who really would have thought that he would totally collapse?

And, so you know, Theo wanted to retain Little. Same with Luchino, it seems. But Henry and other parts of management didn't want him to stay. Apparently Henry wanted to fire Grady in the season after making stupid calls. Theo wanted to give Grady one more year.

It's highly unlikely that Grady would have been fired if they won Game 7, because of the PR hit, but the Sox clearly wanted to get rid of Grady.

Anyway, the end result is this: Despite Grady's masterful job of handling egos, he was unable to incorporate the management's approach to the game. He did repeated hit and runs when their mantra was not to do that until real late in the game. He stole bases at poor times. He ignored any and all statistical information. He didn't hold hitters meetings. He didn't communicate with, nor listen to, his coaches. He always, always managed with his gut, never looking at other factors.

This got him fired; the Pedro decision was a manifestation of this managerial style.

And let's not talk about how "it's hard to pull your best player." I was at Yankee Stadium. The entire stadium knew Pedro was toast. Yes, he was throwing hard, but he lost his location. This wasn't in the eighth inning. It was the seventh. But Grady went with his gut.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:26 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:Now, the Kim trade I won't get into. That had nothing to do with Grady. Maybe that's your point, but his explosion was against the A's, not the Yanks. Who really would have thought that he would totally collapse?
Kims collapse vs ...... the Yankees .... showed that he couldn't handle extreme pressure situations. Last I checked, Boston itself is an extreme pressure situation.
But Grady went with his gut.
this is called managing...

Look, By choice I don't follow Red Sox baseball on a daily basis, But I am pretty sure that we could go back and nit-pick every managerial decsion from all 30 MLB teams, that is the beauty of Hindsight.

Asking Baseball's best pitcher to finish off the 8th shouldn't be a crime. Especially if it is the game of his life.

If Pedro can't throw more than 100 pitches, maybe they should think of making him a closer. Theo can order his manager to bring him in the seventh, so as to toe the Company Line.

this will just have to be one of those ... "Agree to Disagree"
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Postby Transmogrifier » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:56 pm

wrveres wrote:this will just have to be one of those ... "Agree to Disagree"


I guess so. :-D
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