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Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:44 pm

Utley's position has very little to do with his current ranking but more with the fact that he is just a great hitter. However, he plays in a bandbox and with a powerful lineup behind him which are big advantages over MCab.

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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Pirates4Life » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:48 pm

Well, considering the year Utley was having and how much better he's been than anyone else at 2B, I can't imagine there were any systems that actually valued Cabrera higher before today. Utley hadn't regressed like you predicted and Cabrera certainly hasn't busted out with the huge year that his supporters hoped for.

But Yoda, congratulations... all Cabrera has to do is stay healthy and you'll "win" this little debate! I think this one can be put to rest.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:51 pm

Pirates4Life wrote:Well, considering the year Utley was having and how much better he's been than anyone else at 2B, I can't imagine there were any systems that actually valued Cabrera higher before today. Utley hadn't regressed like you predicted and Cabrera certainly hasn't busted out with the huge year that his supporters hoped for.

But Yoda, congratulations... all Cabrera has to do is stay healthy and you'll "win" this little debate! I think this one can be put to rest.


Well you are assuming that Utley would have stayed this hot for the next two months. Was it possible? Sure. Even if he did stay that hot, the end result would have been a lot closer than you were claiming from the start between Utley and Cabrera so it isn't even worth debating anyway.

BTW I never said Utley would regress. The chances of him regressing was a lot higher than Cabrera and that isn't even an argument considering their age. But anyway you can claim that Utley is the greatest player ever lived but very few will agree with you. Sorry to burst your little bubble.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Pirates4Life » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:24 pm

Yoda wrote:
Pirates4Life wrote:Well, considering the year Utley was having and how much better he's been than anyone else at 2B, I can't imagine there were any systems that actually valued Cabrera higher before today. Utley hadn't regressed like you predicted and Cabrera certainly hasn't busted out with the huge year that his supporters hoped for.

But Yoda, congratulations... all Cabrera has to do is stay healthy and you'll "win" this little debate! I think this one can be put to rest.


Well you are assuming that Utley would have stayed this hot for the next two months. Was it possible? Sure. Even if he did stay that hot, the end result would have been a lot closer than you were claiming from the start between Utley and Cabrera so it isn't even worth debating anyway.

BTW I never said Utley would regress. The chances of him regressing was a lot higher than Cabrera and that isn't even an argument considering their age. But anyway you can claim that Utley is the greatest player ever lived but very few will agree with you. Sorry to burst your little bubble.


Nope, not assuming that at all. He wouldn't have had to. And even at the beginning, I never said there'd be a huge difference between them. But I did say that there should be a clear advantage given to Utley and I was part of the majority of people who said that his sheer dominance over the rest of the 2B DOES factor into his value. Phillips and Roberts have both had big years, and neither are remotely close to him.

And I said that in order for Cabrera to be more valuable, he'd have HAD to have that monster season you hoped for AND Utley would've had to regress a bit. Nothing happened this year so far that would make me change those opinions.

Finally, I never claimed he's anything close to the greatest player who ever lived. Just a better value in 2007 than Cabrera. And now he definitely won't be.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:27 pm

Pirates4Life wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Pirates4Life wrote:Well, considering the year Utley was having and how much better he's been than anyone else at 2B, I can't imagine there were any systems that actually valued Cabrera higher before today. Utley hadn't regressed like you predicted and Cabrera certainly hasn't busted out with the huge year that his supporters hoped for.

But Yoda, congratulations... all Cabrera has to do is stay healthy and you'll "win" this little debate! I think this one can be put to rest.


Well you are assuming that Utley would have stayed this hot for the next two months. Was it possible? Sure. Even if he did stay that hot, the end result would have been a lot closer than you were claiming from the start between Utley and Cabrera so it isn't even worth debating anyway.

BTW I never said Utley would regress. The chances of him regressing was a lot higher than Cabrera and that isn't even an argument considering their age. But anyway you can claim that Utley is the greatest player ever lived but very few will agree with you. Sorry to burst your little bubble.


Nope, not assuming that at all. He wouldn't have had to. And even at the beginning, I never said there'd be a huge difference between them. But I did say that there should be a clear advantage given to Utley and I was part of the majority of people who said that his sheer dominance over the rest of the 2B DOES factor into his value. Phillips and Roberts have both had big years, and neither are remotely close to him.

And I said that in order for Cabrera to be more valuable, he'd have HAD to have that monster season you hoped for AND Utley would've had to regress a bit. Nothing happened this year so far that would make me change those opinions.

Finally, I never claimed he's anything close to the greatest player who ever lived. Just a better value in 2007 than Cabrera. And now he definitely won't be.


Season's not over (still well over 2 months left) and MCab is on pace for a career year. He hasn't gone on his tear yet.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby LukeW9027 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:22 pm

Sure Utley was having an amazing season, but lets not forget what Miggy is doing right now.

.334/406/606 60R 23 HR 71 RBI 0SB

This is the kind of power surge that I was expecting from him this season.

IF both players were helathy from this point forward I still think Miggy has a very good chance of putting together a better season than Utley. Too bad we wont get to see it happen... :,-(
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Slow Pitch » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:34 pm

I am very happy with this season from Miggy.

I expect next season to be his MVP year.....Huge #'s will be had
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby talan37 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:56 am

For what its worth, I would rather have Utley due to position scarcity.

In my league as of today Utley has been the #3 most productive player(gotten for 35$), and Miguel cabrera is #15(38$).

There are 4 3B in the top 40.(Arod #1, Miggy #15, wright #25, Chipper #27)

The next closest 2B is Phillips at #53.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby Bloody Sox » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:09 am

talan37 wrote:For what its worth, I would rather have Utley due to position scarcity.

Before yesterday, I'd totally agree... but I DO NOT like hand injuries - they have a tendency to zap power for a long period of time, which will make Utley a concern moving forward into next year. Maybe that 6 month period after he comes back until the start of 2008 will be long enough, but I'd be nervous.
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Re: Better first round choice: Utley vs. Cabrera

Postby hot4tx » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:47 am

Since we were talking about a better first round choice for the beginning of the 2007 season, I still say it's Utley. He has been putting up better numbers through the first four months of this season, he put up better numbers for 2006, and even put up pretty close numbers in 2005 (his first year as a full-time starter). Plus he plays 2B (where owning him gives you an unquestioned advantage over every other team) versus Miggy playing 3B (where at 2 teams have comparable if not better 3B in Arod and Wright and several others have 3Bs that are not that far behind).

Utley still steals at least 10-15 bases a year (getting 15 and 16 stolen bases in his first two full years) while Cabrera has stolen 5 ('04), 1 ('05), 9 ('06) and 0 (so far this year).

They both hit for similar power (I'd argue Utley's HR numbers are higher, but he is a bit older) so HRs is a push. However, the Philly's team with Rollins and Howard looks to continue to be one of the top, proven offenses in the league. Florida looks to be improving, but it's still not to the level the Philly's have been the last three years, and it hasn't shown it can stay where it is yet. This gives Utley his edge in R+RBI.

Both players hit for a good average, though Miggy has proven to hit for a little better average.

So add it up and Utley gives better SB and (R+RBI) while Miggy gives a little better average.

...and we can't factor in the hand injury for evaluating them as of the start of the 2007 season. This was a freak injury that could happen to anyone and could not have been expected - ie doesn't make Chase "injury prone".
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