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Is Gange a legit 1st rounder?

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Postby shortsavage » Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:37 pm

I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.

If Gagne isn't worth a first round pick, no closer is. I think closers should either be factored in whole heartedly or not at all.

If you are a traditional fan, maybe closers are not the thing for your league. But, don't mitigate their numbers because you don't favor the position.

In a modern league, with a good point system, Gagne should be a 1st round draft pick. You can't half dive half into the addition of closers...hehe, as this thread proves, it is too confusing!
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:42 pm

shortsavage wrote:I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.


Closers will never be = to me. 60 innings to 200 innings cant be considered the same. In a 5x5 roto, saves count as 1 single catergory. Thats a whole catergory devoted to one position. What other catergory devotes only to one position?
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Postby shortsavage » Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:59 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
shortsavage wrote:I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.


Closers will never be = to me. 60 innings to 200 innings cant be considered the same. In a 5x5 roto, saves count as 1 single catergory. Thats a whole catergory devoted to one position. What other catergory devotes only to one position?


I don't think saves should be a category in roto.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:09 am

shortsavage wrote:With my scoring system (points based/h2h), Gagne was the top pitcher this season, includes starters! So, I can not see him being anything less than a top 10 overall draft pick.


Points based weekly H2H ..... if saves are equal to wins..... then Gagne, Smoltz, and Wagner ... should be the first three picks overall. again .... if saves are scored the same as a win....
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Postby StAlEfReNcHfRi91 » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:15 am

shortsavage wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
shortsavage wrote:I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.


Closers will never be = to me. 60 innings to 200 innings cant be considered the same. In a 5x5 roto, saves count as 1 single catergory. Thats a whole catergory devoted to one position. What other catergory devotes only to one position?


I don't think saves should be a category in roto.


saves are important in roto...if u just blow off the catagory, u probably won't win...i draft about 4 closers, but their not before the 5th round
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Postby Arlo » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:39 am

shortsavage wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
shortsavage wrote:I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.


Closers will never be = to me. 60 innings to 200 innings cant be considered the same. In a 5x5 roto, saves count as 1 single catergory. Thats a whole catergory devoted to one position. What other catergory devotes only to one position?


I don't think saves should be a category in roto.

Having closers carry the same weight as starters while dropping saves as a category sounds like an awfully tough proposition. Not sure how you'd make that happen, particularly in deeper leagues... Any ideas?
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Postby shortsavage » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:16 am

Hehe that would be impossible. I was saying, give them the same weight or drop them. So if you didn't have saves as a category, your closers would only be good for ERA, WHIP and maybe Ks.
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Postby ramble2 » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:46 am

shortsavage wrote:I get where you are coming from. I just think leagues should be designed where closers can factor in equally with starting pitchers.


In traditional 5x5 roto, closers do factor in equally with all pitchers, it's just that they have less of an impact on the game due to the lower IP. But they are factored into the equation the same.

Or do you mean that the value of the top closer should be made equal to that of a top starter? If so, why? Should the top set up man also be equal to that of the top starter and closer? The top catcher be equal to that of the top outfielder? Do you think that the top player at every position is equally worthy of being a first round pick? Of being taken ahead of the second best player at every position? I'm a little confused what you are calling for.

shortsavage wrote:If Gagne isn't worth a first round pick, no closer is.


true!

shortsavage wrote:If you are a traditional fan, maybe closers are not the thing for your league. But, don't mitigate their numbers because you don't favor the position.


I don't understand how their numbers are being mitigated, or how closers are being disparaged. If anything, the pitcher that typically gets the final out for their team are getting a big bonus for doing that.

Agreed that a points system could be designed that made players equally worthy by position. So could a roto style league. Simply set the values as ratios. Something like K/IP, Wins/IP, Saves/IP, etc. This only gets you part way, however, as even a closer like Gagne won't pitch more than ~90 IP in a season (he had 82.1 in 2002 and 2003). I suppose you could make up for this by doing something like tripling the stats of closers so that their IP looked more like starters, or you could boost the value of saves. In a 5x5, though, saves are already a category unto themselves, what more do you want?

The question isn't whether you could do this (your league, presumably has done it), but why would you do it? You say we shouldn't mitigate closers numbers because we don't favor the position. Well, we can turn that question around. Why should we boost closers numbers (or value) simply because we really like the position?
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Postby shortsavage » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:47 pm

Ramble2, I replied to the questions you had for me, earlier in this post, under a new topic, titled "Why I dislike Roto Baseball!".

If anyone else has failed to understand my closer view points, read my essay, and you should get a good idea of where I am coming from. Sorry it is so long, but I think it will be a worthy read.
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Postby blankman » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:12 pm

To answer the original question, I don't think Gagne is a legit first rounder. He is too one dimensional for a first round pick no matter how good he is. Maybe its been said before, but Gagne does the same thing for you in Saves that Pierre does in SB and no one is considering Pierre a first round pick.
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