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All-time great catcher.

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Who is the best catcher

Johnny Bench
12
75%
Yogi Berra
2
13%
Josh Gibson
2
13%
Mickey Cochrane
0
No votes
Carlton Fisk
0
No votes
Roy Campanella
0
No votes
Roger Bresnahan
0
No votes
Ernie Lombardi
0
No votes
Gabby Hartnett
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 16

Postby DK » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:32 pm

acording to lore (true or not is not for me to decide), gibson hit 972 home runs in the negro leagues. i have studied the negro leagues most of my life, and i can't find anything to refute this nor can i find etch in stone that it's true.
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Postby LCBOY » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:43 pm

DK wrote:acording to lore (true or not is not for me to decide), gibson hit 972 home runs in the negro leagues. i have studied the negro leagues most of my life, and i can't find anything to refute this nor can i find etch in stone that it's true.


The one story I remember vaguely is that one season he outhomered the entire Washington Senators' team in their home ballpark of Griffith Stadium. Griffith Stadium was a monsterous ballpark with dead center over 500 feet. Supposedly, Gibson hit 9 HRs there one season and the entire Senators' team hit either 1 HR or 3 HRs the entire season. I can't remember which figure it was.
Last edited by LCBOY on Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DK » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:45 pm

it was 3, according (again) to lore.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:52 am

DK wrote:How could you forget Piazza, by far the greatest hitting catcher ever?

of your people, i say gibson.


Once again, I didn't include Piazza or any other current catcher (Ivan) because we are comparing careers and their careers are not over.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:04 am

LCBOY wrote:In terms of "career value" it is pretty obvious it's Yogi Berra. He played in 15 Worlds Series and won 10 World Championships. He won THREE MVPs, which is incredible considering he had Mickey Mantle as a teammate.

In terms of "peak value" it is probably between Bench, Piazza, and Gibson. It is very hard to determine Gibson's talent and performance since there is not a lot of stats, just stories. I'd probably pick Bench right now in terms of "peak value".


Bench had MVP's in 70 and 72. And while he only won 2 championships, championships are a function of teams not indivual players. Using the number of championships to determine value would make Phil Rizzuto better than Honus Wagner. Bench is also widely considered to be a better defensive catcher than Yogi.
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Postby LCBOY » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:33 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
LCBOY wrote:In terms of "career value" it is pretty obvious it's Yogi Berra. He played in 15 Worlds Series and won 10 World Championships. He won THREE MVPs, which is incredible considering he had Mickey Mantle as a teammate.

In terms of "peak value" it is probably between Bench, Piazza, and Gibson. It is very hard to determine Gibson's talent and performance since there is not a lot of stats, just stories. I'd probably pick Bench right now in terms of "peak value".


Bench had MVP's in 70 and 72. And while he only won 2 championships, championships are a function of teams not indivual players. Using the number of championships to determine value would make Phil Rizzuto better than Honus Wagner. Bench is also widely considered to be a better defensive catcher than Yogi.


Yes, but the one of the major reasons the Yankees won so many championships was because of Yogi Berra. Championships ARE a function of individual players since the individual players make up the team. The whole point of baseball is to win, right? Otherwise why play the game? The question is how much weight should we give winning to a player's career? I believe it should carry some weight. There are some baseball fans (mainly the "A-Rod for MVP" zealots) who argue that winning should carry no weight at all. I consider this an extreme and incorrect view. Yogi was a major piece of the Greatest Yankee Dynasty of all time. Fron 1947-64 the Yankees played in 15/18 World Series, winning 10 of them. That is an amazing feat!! And if you look at the Yankee teams of that era, they didn't look that great on paper. There was only three HoFers on those Yankee teams, Yogi, Mantle, and Whitey Ford. If you look at the great Yankee teams of the 1920s and 1930s, they had far more HoF talent but they didn't win as many championships. The 1950s Yankees played well as a team. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and Yogi had a major influence on that. Over a career Yogi was the best catcher ever. But at his peak he wasn't as valuable as Bench or Piazza, IMHO...
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:51 pm

LCBOY wrote:[The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and Yogi had a major influence on that.


Not that I'm saying he didn't but how would you prove this?
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:07 pm

LCBOY wrote: And if you look at the Yankee teams of that era, they didn't look that great on paper. There was only three HoFers on those Yankee teams, Yogi, Mantle, and Whitey Ford.


HOF Berra also played with
Dimaggio 47-51
Rizzuto 47-56
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:13 pm

Their career numbers are very close but I think I am focusing more on

1. Bench had better peak years (as you stated)
2. Bench was a better defensive player

The only thing Yogi really does to stand out from Bench is the number of WS which I think doesn't carry as much weight as individual stats. I would be shortsighted if I didn't mention the other category Yogi stands out from Bench, quotes. :-D
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Postby Madison » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:44 pm

LCBOY wrote:Yes, but the one of the major reasons the Yankees won so many championships was because of Yogi Berra. Championships ARE a function of individual players since the individual players make up the team. The whole point of baseball is to win, right? Otherwise why play the game? The question is how much weight should we give winning to a player's career? I believe it should carry some weight. There are some baseball fans (mainly the "A-Rod for MVP" zealots) who argue that winning should carry no weight at all. I consider this an extreme and incorrect view. Yogi was a major piece of the Greatest Yankee Dynasty of all time. Fron 1947-64 the Yankees played in 15/18 World Series, winning 10 of them. That is an amazing feat!! And if you look at the Yankee teams of that era, they didn't look that great on paper. There was only three HoFers on those Yankee teams, Yogi, Mantle, and Whitey Ford. If you look at the great Yankee teams of the 1920s and 1930s, they had far more HoF talent but they didn't win as many championships. The 1950s Yankees played well as a team. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and Yogi had a major influence on that. Over a career Yogi was the best catcher ever. But at his peak he wasn't as valuable as Bench or Piazza, IMHO...


So you think Yogi is the best because he had a good team around him? I agree that championships should be given some weight, but I certainly don't give them as much weight as you do. Winning champoinships is a team thing, not an individual thing. Look at Arod, or Bonds. Should they be excluded from discussing the best at their respective positions, simply beacuse they haven't won a World Series?

I agree that playing 15 out of 18 World Series, and winning 10 of them is an awesome display ;-D . The thing is that Yogi, didn't and couldn't have done it alone. Just because the Yankees were that dominant in those years, does not make Yogi the best catcher of all time in my book.

I'll happily agree to disagree about how important championships are to a players career, personally, I just think you put a little too much weight on it. :-) Just my opinion though ;-) . Carry on. ;-D
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