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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:52 pm

dcskater619 wrote:And how soon you forget, Derrek Lee is a better fielding 1B then Pujols! Derrek Lee is a multiple time Gold Glove winner and was hurt last season and coming back to play from a wrist injury.


lee is better, but its not like pujols is a butcher in the field. pujols is well above average defensively.

Whoever said Rolen and Aramis are close is insane.


rolen is easily the better defender. IF rolen is healthy, there isnt much difference between him and ramirez offensively. ramirez slugs a little more while rolen has a little better on base ability. i think being one full year post surgery rolen will be closer to his peak years in the power numbers, but that is no sure thing.

And since when were Encarnacion and Jones equal? I'll take a .285/.344/.499 (.833 OPS) with 27 bombs and 85 RBI over .278/.317/.443 (.760 OPS) with 19 bombs 79 RBI anyday.


so would i, but is jones a lock for those numbers? neither jones nor encar are particularly great players and in any given year will likely put up similar numbers.


Soriano and Edmonds would be a joke to even compare


will soriano even play CF?

i really doubt derosa repeats 2006. he is a utility player.

Izturis is a better hitter then Eckstein


no he isnt.

(who leads off in front of Pujols, etc and cant get 70 runs)


because he missed about 40 games

In Izturis' last full healthy year, he had 190+ hits and 90 runs with 25 steals and a .290 average.. Not bad if u ask me..


he did that once in his entire career. his career year OPS matches eck's career avg. izturis has a career obp of under .300. thats bad if you ask me.
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Postby dcskater619 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:11 pm

soriano probably wont play CF, i just compared both teams best OFers..

once again, rolen is nowhere close to aramis.. surgery doesnt mean ur gonna be fine next year, just ask kerry wood..

like i said, jacque had those numbers WITHOUT derrek lee in front of him.. this year, he will have lee AND soriano.. much better numbers then encarnacion. guarenteed.

i totally forgot eckstein was hurt, i knew there had to be something to that.. he still hasnt produced.. and u made the wrong comparisons with izturis, who is NOT leadoff hitter and never will be. i said he was a better HITTER, which is a close debate. one things for sure, eckstein couldnt get 193 hits/90 runs/25 steals if his life depended on it.. they both play pretty damn good defense at short though
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Postby AcidRock23 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:45 pm

I'd read in the local paper that the Cards might be looking to expand Spezio's role as well, as he'd gone to the U of Ill, the press here might fluff up his value a bit but it isn't like LaRussa is averse to juggling guys around, etc.

I think that the Cubs look better on paper but seem to have a history of underperforming their projections once they hit the field. A lot of their guys (eg ARam and Pierre...) turned it up a bit in the second half, which makes them look OK on paper but by the time they turned it on, the Cubs were WAAAAY out of it. Oddly, the only team I can recall them matching up against over .500 was the champs... :-? ;-D
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Postby RocketsDWM » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:48 pm

Someone made this point earlier but as long as you get into the playoffs anything can happen. The entire Card team went on a hot streak and players played above their potential.

About this season - I think there is potential for a trade btwn the Red Sox and Cards. Cards trade Izzy to Boston and put Wainwright back in the closers role and Boston gives up a young starter (Lester?). The Cards may have to throw in another player.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:53 pm

dcskater619 wrote:once again, rolen is nowhere close to aramis


you are in love with the long ball. dont worry, you will get over it in time. are you familiar with RC27? rolen and ramirez were nearly identical last year, and last year was a down year for rolen. that doesnt take into account defense either. rolen and ramirez had nearly identical OPS+ last year. again...down year for rolen and doesnt take into account defense. ramirez and rolen had nearly identical win shares last year.

so how about trying to prove your point instead of just repeating it?

like i said, jacque had those numbers WITHOUT derrek lee in front of him.. this year, he will have lee AND soriano.. much better numbers then encarnacion. guarenteed.


the lineup doesnt have much of an effect on rate states, only counting stats. over the long haul, jones and encar will have similar rate stats.

and u made the wrong comparisons with izturis, who is NOT leadoff hitter and never will be.


he was primarily a lead off hitter in 2004 which you keep bringing up.

i said he was a better HITTER, which is a close debate.


prove it.

eck consistently hits for a higher average. he consistently gets on base better, which is important for everyone not just leadoff hitters. eck's pathetic slugging percentage is still better than izturis's.

one things for sure, eckstein couldnt get 193 hits/90 runs/25 steals if his life depended on it.


eckstein had 185 hits in 630 at bats in 2005 compared to 193 hits in 670 at bats for izturis in 2004. it is easier to have more hits if you get more at bats by swinging at everything and not taking walks. eck's three highest run scored totals are 107, 92 and 90. eck's career best is 29 stolen bases. he can run, but running is an organizational philosophy and the cards dont run much. they particularly dont send runners that are on base ahead of pujols.

izturis had a decent year in 2004 but it looks to be an anomaly compared to his career numbers and minor league stats. he had an usually high BABIP that year.
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Postby davidmarver » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:07 pm

dcskater619 wrote:the cubs lineup is MUCH better then the cardinals, and the pitching staff, as well as the bullpen (especially without wainwright), is better as well..

Not a chance.

Derrek Lee's career year is Albert Pujols' before-prime average season. And as bad as Pierre's .330 Cubs leadoff OBP was, Soriano's career OBP is just .331. And it isn't as if Soriano is valuable in the field.

Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, and Yadier Molina help build one hell-of-a-defense to go behind MLB's #2 pitcher, Chris Carpenter. And it isn't as if the Cubs pitching could ever hold up. Relying on a starter who walked 115 batters last season to be your ace, while also relying on Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Kerry Wood to hold up for an entire season, doesn't bode well for the Cubs pitching in 2007.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:33 pm

dcskater619 wrote:Pujols > Lee (however, Lee is still an elite hitter)
Rolen < Ramirez
Edmonds << Soriano
J. Rod < Murton
Encarnacion < Jones
Eckstein = Izturis (as long as izturis stays healthy, he will be better)
Kennedy < DeRosa
Molina < Barrett


I fixed it for you. :-)

Pujols > Lee
Rolen = Ramirez
Edmonds < Soriano
Duncan = Murton
Encarnacion = Jones
Eckstein > Izturis
Kennedy = DeRosa
Molina < Barrett
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Postby StlSluggers » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:30 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
dcskater619 wrote:Pujols > Lee (however, Lee is still an elite hitter)
Rolen < Ramirez
Edmonds << Soriano
J. Rod < Murton
Encarnacion < Jones
Eckstein = Izturis (as long as izturis stays healthy, he will be better)
Kennedy < DeRosa
Molina < Barrett


I fixed it for you. :-)

Pujols > Lee
Rolen = Ramirez
Edmonds < Soriano
Duncan = Murton
Encarnacion = Jones
Eckstein > Izturis
Kennedy = DeRosa
Molina < Barrett

And all discussion on this topic suddenly comes to a halt.

Great post, Pogo. ;-D

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