Cardinals sinking - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Cardinals sinking

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Cleveland Steamers » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:09 am

davidmarver wrote:
dcskater619 wrote:the cubs lineup is MUCH better then the cardinals, and the pitching staff, as well as the bullpen (especially without wainwright), is better as well..

Not a chance.

Derrek Lee's career year is Albert Pujols' before-prime average season. And as bad as Pierre's .330 Cubs leadoff OBP was, Soriano's career OBP is just .331. And it isn't as if Soriano is valuable in the field.

Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, and Yadier Molina help build one hell-of-a-defense to go behind MLB's #2 pitcher, Chris Carpenter. And it isn't as if the Cubs pitching could ever hold up. Relying on a starter who walked 115 batters last season to be your ace, while also relying on Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Kerry Wood to hold up for an entire season, doesn't bode well for the Cubs pitching in 2007.


Edmonds has to play to be an effective defender...and Im not convinced that Edmonds has lost much of his defensive prowess. After watching a crazy amount of Cardinal games last season, I have come to the conclusion that Edmonds is completely over-rated defensively. I know I will have a number of people counter that but just watch the guy in over 20 games...over-rated as it comes. I agree that Pujols, Rolen, and Yadier are great defensive chips but the Card defensive takes a HUGE hit with Chris Duncan in the field.

Zambrano struggled with his control last season but was effective nonetheless. His walks went up a great amount in 06 but I fully expect him to revert back to his 80-90BBs in 07. No matter what I hear about the Cardinal rotation, it can be just as bad if not worse in 07. Im sure Carpenter will be the same type ace which is almost guaranteed barring injury. After CCarp, it gets downright ugly. If the Cards don't resign Weaver, they're in trouble. Weaver definitely isn't a gem but if the Cards have to resort to putting Looper (who has NEVER started a MLB game) in the rotation, its going to be laughable.

Lineup easily goes to the Cubs if everyone stays healthy:
Yadier << Barrett
Pujols > Lee
Kennedy < DeRosa
Eckstein > Izturis
Rolen < Aramis
J.Rod < Murton
Edmonds << Soriano
Encarnacion < Jones

Duncan >> Theriot

Pujols is on the verge of >> but so it Aramis over Rolen...Cub lineup is much more deadly without injury (like Lee).
Cleveland Steamers
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3739
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Everywhere...looking for a job in baseball...or fantasy sports...

Postby RAmst23 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:53 am

Jd the reason I suggested extra relievers is if they go through and make Wainwright and Looper starters. I don't believe many of those younger guys can continue to pitch well. And that was the only bright spot to our pitching last year. Also, if your having a hard time acquiring good FA pitching our corner OF, why not sign a couple relievers to bolster a believed strength and make a trade? Anyway, I agree patience is needed when watching Jocketty work. I've been there, been a Cards fan for a good time now. IMO he's put us in a tight spot this offseason. Usually he creates a Cards team that just needs 1-2 more pieces. This year, I think we need more than that.

To try and hit some points made in this thread...
Edmonds wasn't a great OF this PAST season. He had shoulder problems and was hampered by injuries. I watched a few Cards games myself and he did lose a step. My bet is he'll be fine this upcoming year.

Also, people are overstating how much an impact Duncan's defense will have. First, he's not as bad as he showed during the WS. The excitement got to him and he was even worse than he was during the season. He's better than that (Though still not very good) and the fact Duncan plays defensive doesn't really cancel out the rest of the gold glovers... ;-7

I agree on the rotation part. JD posted the starters ERA of last season and said it can't help be better than last years. I'm not sure on that, it might be just as bad. And the Cards last year were a BAD regular season team last year. Let's not try and create one of the worst rotations in baseball again and in addition hope the rest of the division bombs out again??

As to the line-up comparison, that's awfully arbitrary and inaccurate. You act as if Pujols is sligthly better than Lee (with your scientific > instead of a >>) when he's leaps and bounds better than DLee. Kennedy and DeRose are fairly equal if not Kennedy being directly better. Encarnacion and Jones are about as equal as they come. with Murton and Duncan (Not JRod) Duncan is better. And Rolen had a .887 OPS last year while ARam had a .912... Pretty equal..

Cubs line-up and the Cards are pretty equal, even the fantastic Soriano only had a .900 OPS while Edmonds had a .820, and I'm not putting it past Edmonds to post an equal season to Sorainos..

Cubs, once again, aren't looking to great this offseason. Again. Anyway, not to dwell on the last place Central division team any longer, I'd like to hear some thoughts on what the Cards can do to improve. Like I said in my 1st post, any thoughts on trades or these big contracts the Cards can take on?? Is Burrell an option (or do we even want him??)
...Boston papers now and then suffer a sharp flurry of arithmetic on this score; indeed, for Williams to have distributed all his hits so they did nobody else any good would constitute a feat of placement unparalleled in the annals of selfishness. -Updike
RAmst23
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1986
(Past Year: 3)
Joined: 6 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Sitting on the steps of Busch Stadium

Postby RugbyD » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:54 am

I think the Cards' problem is less about sinking and more about failing to rise. They've been able to get by in a crappy division for a few years now for a variety of reasons, some of their doing and some not, but that gravy train can only last so long.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Postby greenandgold » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:19 pm

sportsaddict wrote:Also, David Eckstein is way overated at the leadoff spot. He doesn't make anything happen at the top of the order because he can't steal, his OBP is terrible, and he never walks. All he's good for is solid defense and hustle. I wish we could get a leadoff hitter with speed and a good OBP but that won't happen considering Eckstein just won WS MVP.


Good way to start - get rid of WS MVP ;-D

Seriously though, Eckstein isn't the worst you can do for leadoff. Here is an career OBP comparison:

Eckstein: .351
Pierre: .350
Soriano: .325
Matthews: .336
Lugo: .340
greenandgold
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Cafe RankerMatchup Meltdown Survivor
Posts: 746
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Goin' home with the Armadillo

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:28 pm

StlSluggers wrote:I'm waiting for Pogo to find this thread.

I've been away for X-mas. :-D

How are they worse than last year? The SP and injuries couldn't be much worse than last year. Kennedy isn't a world beater but he is better than what we had last year. I don't think Duncan will recreate his 2nd half for all of 2007 but his bat is an improvement and he'll actually have time to prepare for the OF this year instead of just being thrown out there. Edmonds is a huge ?. They still need a SP but they are in a better postion right now then they were at this time last year.
Image
Pogotheostrich
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 21510
(Past Year: 451)
Joined: 9 Dec 2002
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: St. Louis

Postby Cleveland Steamers » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:47 pm

RAmst23 wrote:Jd the reason I suggested extra relievers is if they go through and make Wainwright and Looper starters. I don't believe many of those younger guys can continue to pitch well. And that was the only bright spot to our pitching last year. Also, if your having a hard time acquiring good FA pitching our corner OF, why not sign a couple relievers to bolster a believed strength and make a trade? Anyway, I agree patience is needed when watching Jocketty work. I've been there, been a Cards fan for a good time now. IMO he's put us in a tight spot this offseason. Usually he creates a Cards team that just needs 1-2 more pieces. This year, I think we need more than that.

To try and hit some points made in this thread...
Edmonds wasn't a great OF this PAST season. He had shoulder problems and was hampered by injuries. I watched a few Cards games myself and he did lose a step. My bet is he'll be fine this upcoming year.

Also, people are overstating how much an impact Duncan's defense will have. First, he's not as bad as he showed during the WS. The excitement got to him and he was even worse than he was during the season. He's better than that (Though still not very good) and the fact Duncan plays defensive doesn't really cancel out the rest of the gold glovers... ;-7

I agree on the rotation part. JD posted the starters ERA of last season and said it can't help be better than last years. I'm not sure on that, it might be just as bad. And the Cards last year were a BAD regular season team last year. Let's not try and create one of the worst rotations in baseball again and in addition hope the rest of the division bombs out again??

As to the line-up comparison, that's awfully arbitrary and inaccurate. You act as if Pujols is sligthly better than Lee (with your scientific > instead of a >>) when he's leaps and bounds better than DLee. Kennedy and DeRose are fairly equal if not Kennedy being directly better. Encarnacion and Jones are about as equal as they come. with Murton and Duncan (Not JRod) Duncan is better. And Rolen had a .887 OPS last year while ARam had a .912... Pretty equal..

Cubs line-up and the Cards are pretty equal, even the fantastic Soriano only had a .900 OPS while Edmonds had a .820, and I'm not putting it past Edmonds to post an equal season to Sorainos..

Cubs, once again, aren't looking to great this offseason. Again. Anyway, not to dwell on the last place Central division team any longer, I'd like to hear some thoughts on what the Cards can do to improve. Like I said in my 1st post, any thoughts on trades or these big contracts the Cards can take on?? Is Burrell an option (or do we even want him??)


I agree that Pujols is a much better hitter than D.Lee but it isn't far enough to double productivity. If we stick to the <> signs, I would go with Pujols 1.5> Lee. I really think that ARam is 1.5>Rolen as well no matter how close last years OPS (with D.Lee out as well). DeRosa is better than Kennedy but who knows how those two will work out this year since no name/low tier 2Bs often have a career year with the Cards. To say that Edmonds has even a remote chance of matching Soriano is crazy. Edmonds is on a severe downslide. I don't see the guy being an offensive threat in 07.
Cleveland Steamers
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3739
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Everywhere...looking for a job in baseball...or fantasy sports...

Postby FalcoAtL » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:53 pm

Cleveland Steamers wrote:
RAmst23 wrote:Jd the reason I suggested extra relievers is if they go through and make Wainwright and Looper starters. I don't believe many of those younger guys can continue to pitch well. And that was the only bright spot to our pitching last year. Also, if your having a hard time acquiring good FA pitching our corner OF, why not sign a couple relievers to bolster a believed strength and make a trade? Anyway, I agree patience is needed when watching Jocketty work. I've been there, been a Cards fan for a good time now. IMO he's put us in a tight spot this offseason. Usually he creates a Cards team that just needs 1-2 more pieces. This year, I think we need more than that.

To try and hit some points made in this thread...
Edmonds wasn't a great OF this PAST season. He had shoulder problems and was hampered by injuries. I watched a few Cards games myself and he did lose a step. My bet is he'll be fine this upcoming year.

Also, people are overstating how much an impact Duncan's defense will have. First, he's not as bad as he showed during the WS. The excitement got to him and he was even worse than he was during the season. He's better than that (Though still not very good) and the fact Duncan plays defensive doesn't really cancel out the rest of the gold glovers... ;-7

I agree on the rotation part. JD posted the starters ERA of last season and said it can't help be better than last years. I'm not sure on that, it might be just as bad. And the Cards last year were a BAD regular season team last year. Let's not try and create one of the worst rotations in baseball again and in addition hope the rest of the division bombs out again??

As to the line-up comparison, that's awfully arbitrary and inaccurate. You act as if Pujols is sligthly better than Lee (with your scientific > instead of a >>) when he's leaps and bounds better than DLee. Kennedy and DeRose are fairly equal if not Kennedy being directly better. Encarnacion and Jones are about as equal as they come. with Murton and Duncan (Not JRod) Duncan is better. And Rolen had a .887 OPS last year while ARam had a .912... Pretty equal..

Cubs line-up and the Cards are pretty equal, even the fantastic Soriano only had a .900 OPS while Edmonds had a .820, and I'm not putting it past Edmonds to post an equal season to Sorainos..

Cubs, once again, aren't looking to great this offseason. Again. Anyway, not to dwell on the last place Central division team any longer, I'd like to hear some thoughts on what the Cards can do to improve. Like I said in my 1st post, any thoughts on trades or these big contracts the Cards can take on?? Is Burrell an option (or do we even want him??)


I agree that Pujols is a much better hitter than D.Lee but it isn't far enough to double productivity. If we stick to the <> signs, I would go with Pujols 1.5> Lee. I really think that ARam is 1.5>Rolen as well no matter how close last years OPS (with D.Lee out as well). DeRosa is better than Kennedy but who knows how those two will work out this year since no name/low tier 2Bs often have a career year with the Cards. To say that Edmonds has even a remote chance of matching Soriano is crazy. Edmonds is on a severe downslide. I don't see the guy being an offensive threat in 07.


Well said. I agree with everything except the Edmonds stuff. The guy was hurt almost all of '06. I think he's due for a decent comeback in '07. Obviously nothing like his prime years stats, but right around where you would want him to be at his age.
Image
FalcoAtL
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 1890
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 1 Oct 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Postby IllinoisBandit » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:32 pm

While I HATE the cardinals, they're definately the favorite to win the division in my mind.

Duncan can flat out hit. I'm a believer. They still have a pretty potent offense IMO. Not the run-up-the-score kind of offense some teams have, but the kind that wins games.

Reyes is overrated by leaps and bounds. I really don't believe he lives up to the hype he once had. And Izzy, well he's about on par with Ryan Dempster in my book these days.

They desperately need to resign Weaver, probably more than they realize.
IllinoisBandit
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 615
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:48 pm

Wow... I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk, but it's not often that someone makes a multi-point post about which I disagree with each point made.

IllinoisBandit wrote:Duncan can flat out hit. I'm a believer.

He can flat out get on base. I'll give you that, but the guy had very average numbers in the minors due to his propensity to strike out. Plus, he has huge holes in his swing against lefties. Add to that mix the fact that he hit in front of Pujols for a good portion of the second-half of last year, and what you have are the makings of a sophmore slump. Until he starts hitting lefties, he's a quality platoon player.

IllinoisBandit wrote:Reyes is overrated by leaps and bounds.

I'd like to see your logic here. Minors K-rate > 1/IP (~1/IP in the Majors so far). Minors K/BB-rate in the 3-4 range (>2 in the Majors so far). He does give up a few too many homers, and he's a slight injury risk, but to say he's overrated by leaps and bounds is a dramatic exaggeration.

IllinoisBandit wrote:They desperately need to resign Weaver, probably more than they realize.

Why? Because he pitched well for two months?

Don't get me wrong. I think the guy will do well if he comes back and pitches under Duncan, but if he goes somewhere else for big bucks, I won't whine one bit. He's as big of a risk as you can get these days, and that's magnified since he's a Boras client.
StlSluggers
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterWeb Supporter
Posts: 14716
(Past Year: 18)
Joined: 24 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Parking in the gov't bldg @ 7th and Pine. It's only $3.00 on game day!

Postby dcskater619 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:13 pm

davidmarver wrote:
dcskater619 wrote:the cubs lineup is MUCH better then the cardinals, and the pitching staff, as well as the bullpen (especially without wainwright), is better as well..

Not a chance.

Derrek Lee's career year is Albert Pujols' before-prime average season. And as bad as Pierre's .330 Cubs leadoff OBP was, Soriano's career OBP is just .331. And it isn't as if Soriano is valuable in the field.

Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, and Yadier Molina help build one hell-of-a-defense to go behind MLB's #2 pitcher, Chris Carpenter. And it isn't as if the Cubs pitching could ever hold up. Relying on a starter who walked 115 batters last season to be your ace, while also relying on Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Kerry Wood to hold up for an entire season, doesn't bode well for the Cubs pitching in 2007.


I was just about to agree with everyone else and say Edmonds defense is way over-rated now but they beat me to it.. Sure he was great 3 years ago, but he's lost more then a step.. And how soon you forget, Derrek Lee is a better fielding 1B then Pujols! Derrek Lee is a multiple time Gold Glove winner and was hurt last season and coming back to play from a wrist injury. Whoever said Rolen and Aramis are close is insane.. Rolen and Edmonds havent been threats in the lineup since 05. And since when were Encarnacion and Jones equal? I'll take a .285/.344/.499 (.833 OPS) with 27 bombs and 85 RBI over .278/.317/.443 (.760 OPS) with 19 bombs 79 RBI anyday.. Not to mention, all Jacques RBI's came without Derrek Lee in front of him in the lineup. Soriano and Edmonds would be a joke to even compare, and Murton is the MUCH more MLB-Ready hitter over Duncan. Murton will easily bat .300 again this year and can hit both lefties and righties. Great OBP guy is exactly what hes in the lineup for. However, if Duncan started the year in LF that would cost the team games because he looks like a kid in T-Ball playing the outfield..Barrett and DeRosa are obvious choices over Molina and Kennedy. Izturis is a better hitter then Eckstein (who leads off in front of Pujols, etc and cant get 70 runs).. In Izturis' last full healthy year, he had 190+ hits and 90 runs with 25 steals and a .290 average.. Not bad if u ask me..

Pujols > Lee (however, Lee is still an elite hitter)
Rolen < Ramirez
Edmonds << Soriano
J. Rod < Murton
Encarnacion < Jones
Eckstein = Izturis (as long as izturis stays healthy, he will be better)
Kennedy < DeRosa
Molina < Barrett
dcskater619
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 868
Joined: 9 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Basketball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: footballisbetter.com, Johnesmype, Majestic-12 [Bot], Skin Blues, slink and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Apr. 17
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Atlanta at Philadelphia
(1:05 pm)
Cleveland at Detroit
(1:08 pm)
Toronto at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Seattle at Texas
(2:05 pm)
LA Dodgers at San Francisco
(3:45 pm)
Colorado at San Diego
(6:40 pm)
Milwaukee at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
St. Louis at Washington
(7:05 pm)
NY Yankees at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Boston at Chi White Sox
(8:10 pm)
Kansas City at Houston
(8:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact