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Cardinals sinking

Postby RAmst23 » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:54 pm

Someone made the comment in another thread that the Cardinal's ship is sinking this year. Unfortunately, I agree. The World Series champions seemed to take the high road this offseason. Unwilling to overspend on players, they now have no new players to speak of. It's nice to look for a bargain during the season but that means there have to bargains to find in the first place.

This offseason has been riddled with inflated contracts, and to acquire a player this season it seems a team would need to spend a little more than expected. The Cardinals have not done this. Recently, an article appeared in St Louis Dispatch stating Jocketty was happy with the rotation of Carpenter, Reyes, Kip Wells, Adam Wainwright, and Braden Looped in the rotation (Though he did say he'd try and make improvements during spring training). How in the world is a team supposed to compete with a rotation such as this? Has any team possibly lost more ground this offseason then the World Champs? Any players still available that could improve this team?
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Postby dcskater619 » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:29 pm

i definitely feel they have no choice but to sign jeff weaver and hope he stays playoff form.. he was great in the playoffs after fixing his mechanics and could make a big difference in the rotation (signing mulder would be a bad idea). LF is a big problem for them and adam kennedy isnt gonna improve their lineup at all at 2B.. id say the best option is to sign cliff floyd to play LF and bat him 6th behind rolen.. preston wilson would like to return but hes proved that hes the definition of a "one year wonder." So if the cardinals are willing to spend 12 million dollars or so to sign Weaver and Floyd, they could atleast COMPETE again..

Eckstein
Kennedy
Pujols
Edmonds
Rolen
Floyd
Encarnacion
Molina

not too bad, but not as good as the cubs or astros lineups (not a homer statement)

Carpenter = Zambrano
Kip Wells < Ted Lilly
Reyes < Mark Prior
Wainwright < Rich Hill
Looper < Wade Miller

once again, on paper the cubs are looking a lot better then the cards this season
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Postby tal1286 » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:23 pm

The cards have been penny wise and pound foolish.

Welcome to a Cubs fan's life since they signed Dawson in the mid/late Eighties until this past offseason. (Beltran and Furcal getting away because we wouldn't add one year to the contract as examples among many many others)
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Postby Scooter1027 » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:27 pm

dcskater619 wrote:i definitely feel they have no choice but to sign jeff weaver and hope he stays playoff form.. he was great in the playoffs after fixing his mechanics and could make a big difference in the rotation (signing mulder would be a bad idea). LF is a big problem for them and adam kennedy isnt gonna improve their lineup at all at 2B.. id say the best option is to sign cliff floyd to play LF and bat him 6th behind rolen.. preston wilson would like to return but hes proved that hes the definition of a "one year wonder." So if the cardinals are willing to spend 12 million dollars or so to sign Weaver and Floyd, they could atleast COMPETE again..

Eckstein
Kennedy
Pujols
Edmonds
Rolen
Floyd
Encarnacion
Molina

not too bad, but not as good as the cubs or astros lineups (not a homer statement)

Carpenter = Zambrano
Kip Wells < Ted Lilly
Reyes < Mark Prior
Wainwright < Rich Hill
Looper < Wade Miller

once again, on paper the cubs are looking a lot better then the cards this season


Well, your rotation comparison is a bit iffy. You're actually assuming that Prior and Miller can make it more than 3 games, a mighty big assumption. You're also assuming that Prior still is the same pitcher after all those injuries. Reyes might end up being better. Plus I'd rather have Wainwright than Hill.

The two problems the Cubs have had in the last couple years is a very low team OBP (29th in the league last year) and pitching injuries. I don't really see how the Cubs improved in those areas outside of Derrek Lee returning, and maybe Ted Lilly.

As a Brewer fan who watches both teams all too often (actually, I've rather enjoyed the Cubs the last couple years), I still fear the Cards more. They still have Pujols, Rolen, Carpenter, a solid bullpen, a couple of good young starters, and a great manager. Yeah, they lost some pieces, but big pieces? Suppan's a nice pitcher, but he will only be a #4 in the Brewers rotation. Sometimes its best not to throw tons of cash out there. I have a feeling that the Soriano, Lilly, Lee, and possibly Suppan deals signed within this division will bite their respective teams in the ass within a couple years.
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Postby Another Blown Save » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:42 pm

I think Floyd is close to signing with the Cubs.

And the Cardinals have Duncan at LF.
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Postby sportsaddict » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:29 pm

once again, on paper the cubs are looking a lot better then the cards this season


Once again? The Cubs haven't been better on paper or on the field than the Cardinals since they went to the NLCS and blew their chance.

But anyway, the Cardinals biggest hole is the lack of power in the lineup. Pujols gives us a whole lot of power, and Rolen is more of a line drive hitter that will give us maybe 25-30 HRs... other than that, I don't think we will have anybody else over 20 (Maybe Chris Duncan but I think once pitchers figure him out he will cool off).

Encarnacion is a bum. He didn't even show up to the WS parade because he didn't play; I guess he didn't realize the reason he didn't play is because he was horrible in the playoffs. We need to get rid of him, he's nothing special and his effort is lacking.

Also, David Eckstein is way overated at the leadoff spot. He doesn't make anything happen at the top of the order because he can't steal, his OBP is terrible, and he never walks. All he's good for is solid defense and hustle. I wish we could get a leadoff hitter with speed and a good OBP but that won't happen considering Eckstein just won WS MVP.

The Cardinals need a power hitting outfielder to complete their offense- I'd take Cliff Floyd if he was the only one available, but we missed our shot with Soriano and C Lee. Right now, we are really lacking in the power department and this offense is going to be in trouble if we don't do something.

I'm the only person it seems that thinks the Cards rotation is fine. If we sign Weaver, we would have a rotation of:

Carpenter
Reyes
Wainright
Weaver
Kip Wells

If Reyes and Wainright pan out, we could have ourselves a solid rotation. And I still think it is better than the Cubs. You just cannot rely on Mark Prior or Wade Miller to show up, and the only pitcher I really consider elite is Zambrano. Marquis is trash, and so is Ted Lilly. Lilly is nothing but an overated end of the rotation pitcher.
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Postby Third Day » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:35 pm

How much of a teams success can be attributed to the manager over the course of a season? As much as I love Yost, I honestly feel that Garner and LaRussa can manufacture more wins. And the Cubs???? Does Pinnella still have the chops?
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Postby LukeW9027 » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:42 pm

Third Day wrote:How much of a teams success can be attributed to the manager over the course of a season? As much as I love Yost, I honestly feel that Garner and LaRussa can manufacture more wins. And the Cubs???? Does Pinnella still have the chops?


You can question many things about Sweet Lou as a manager, but his willingness to manufacture runs by stealing bases and laying down SAC bunts is his bread and butter. And about the Cards, as long as they have Pujols, Rolen, Carpenter, and LaRussa, they will be in contention as always.
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Postby Cleveland Steamers » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:58 pm

sportsaddict wrote:
once again, on paper the cubs are looking a lot better then the cards this season


Once again? The Cubs haven't been better on paper or on the field than the Cardinals since they went to the NLCS and blew their chance.

But anyway, the Cardinals biggest hole is the lack of power in the lineup. Pujols gives us a whole lot of power, and Rolen is more of a line drive hitter that will give us maybe 25-30 HRs... other than that, I don't think we will have anybody else over 20 (Maybe Chris Duncan but I think once pitchers figure him out he will cool off).

Encarnacion is a bum. He didn't even show up to the WS parade because he didn't play; I guess he didn't realize the reason he didn't play is because he was horrible in the playoffs. We need to get rid of him, he's nothing special and his effort is lacking.

Also, David Eckstein is way overated at the leadoff spot. He doesn't make anything happen at the top of the order because he can't steal, his OBP is terrible, and he never walks. All he's good for is solid defense and hustle. I wish we could get a leadoff hitter with speed and a good OBP but that won't happen considering Eckstein just won WS MVP.

The Cardinals need a power hitting outfielder to complete their offense- I'd take Cliff Floyd if he was the only one available, but we missed our shot with Soriano and C Lee. Right now, we are really lacking in the power department and this offense is going to be in trouble if we don't do something.

I'm the only person it seems that thinks the Cards rotation is fine. If we sign Weaver, we would have a rotation of:

Carpenter
Reyes
Wainright
Weaver
Kip Wells

If Reyes and Wainright pan out, we could have ourselves a solid rotation. And I still think it is better than the Cubs. You just cannot rely on Mark Prior or Wade Miller to show up, and the only pitcher I really consider elite is Zambrano. Marquis is trash, and so is Ted Lilly. Lilly is nothing but an overated end of the rotation pitcher.


I would take Ted Lilly over Kip Wells and Jeff Weaver any day of the week. I also would much rather have Rich Hill than Adam Wainwright. Wainright was great last season in a relief role but I see his success changing when he gets in the rotation and hitters see him multiple times within a game.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:20 pm

SSDD. i've heard this all before. the cards are mailing it in...their run is over. sooner or later that guess will be right, but every time i've heard it so far has been wrong.

doesnt matter who they go with, the rotation has to be better next year.
2006
era whip
carp - 3.09, 1.07
suppan - 4.12, 1.45
reyes - 5.06, 1.38
weaver - 5.18, 1.50
ponson - 5.24, 1.62
marquis - 6.02, 1.52
mulder - 7.14, 1.70

the cards basically started last season with taguchi as the regular LF and aaron miles at 2b. duncan and kennedy are improvements. rolen wasnt fully healthy and neither was edmonds. rolen should be stronger this year. edmonds should be better after getting his shoulder cleaned out. izzy should be better than last year. i wouldnt call them a championship caliber team right now but they will be competitive.

dont listen to what jocketty says in the papers. he never reveals his true intentions. i dont believe he is comfortable with looper. what is he supposed to say?--we suck and i should panic and sign someone?

i'd love to have schmidt or zito. from what i understand, they had a competitive offer for schmidt (3/42) but he preferred the west coast. they offered wolf 3/24 but he took less to go to LA. no one else is really worth it. i am glad they didnt pay for padilla, batista, or suppan. i am glad they didnt do something stupid like trade their best prospects for a mediocre starting pitcher. in prior years i agree, they were unwilling to spend big money on the team. this year i have no problem with them staying out of the madness.
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