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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:05 pm

J35J wrote: The Cow reminds me an awful lot of that Yankee fan (can't remember his ID) but they are both more knowledgable then people actually think


Having seen Cow post in a LOT of threads, I'd say there's a TON of evidence to the contrary.

And I think you underestimate how much fun I have in those exchanges.
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Postby The Cow » Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:59 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
J35J wrote: The Cow reminds me an awful lot of that Yankee fan (can't remember his ID) but they are both more knowledgable then people actually think


Having seen Cow post in a LOT of threads, I'd say there's a TON of evidence to the contrary.

And I think you underestimate how much fun I have in those exchanges.


Agnes lets looks at this trade from the Red Sox point of view. After the 2005 season the Red Sox had 4 ways to fill CF
1. Re-sign Damon, they did not do this and since the Red Sox were/are in win now mode they felt they needed to fill CF with the best talent AVAILABLE.
2. Sign FA CF- They chose not to do this, I believe Patterson, Finley and Wilson were some of the CFs out there.
3. Fill CF from within- The Sox felt that they had know in house candidate for CF, I believe Adam Stern was the leading contender, but he was looked upon as a #4 OF at best. The Sox could have also started Wily Mo in CF or was he acquired after Crisp, either way Wily Mo is more of a spot starter type in CF, not a regular.
4. Trade for a CF- They chose this option and they chose Crisp and remember that going into 2006 Crisp was considered an up and coming OF.

Now lets consider that the Red Sox plan was to deal Marte for the best available CF for the sake of this post becaus ewe could go on and on about other trade scenarios. So lets just see who the Sox could have gotten for Marte:
First lets cross off CFs from teams with quality 3B or promising youngsters:
LAA McPherson(the hope was that he would get healthy) so no Figgins
OAK Chavez, cross off Bradley, Kotsay and Payton
TOR Glaus cross off Wells, Rios and R. Johnson
BAL Mora cross off well nobody
NYY AROD cross off Damon
K.C. Teahan and Gordon cross off DeJesus
CWS Crede cross off B. Anderson and Posednik
ATL Chipper cross off A. Jones
FLA Miggy cross off well nobody
NYM Wright cross of Beltran
Nats Zimmerman cross off nobody
STL Rolen cross off Edmonds
CUBS ARAMIS cross off Pierre
CIN Encarnacion cross off Griffey and Freel
ARI Tracy cross off Byrnes

Now what is left?
SEA they have Beltre at 3B and J.Reed in CF and Ichiro in RF. You are not getting Ichiro fo rMarte. There were rumors of Reed to Bos, but Crisp was considered better than Reed.
TEX They have a quality guy at 3B in Blalock, he was rumored to be in alot of deals so maybe the Sox could get Mathews, but now way the Sox deal Marte for Mathews
TB They could use Marte and they could give up Baldelli or Gathright. Baldelli was coming off an injury. My guess is that TB wanted too much as usual. Marte does not net Crawford
DET I don't think they deal granderson for Marte, and BOS is not dealing Marte for Monroe.
MIN Could use a 3B as Batista is the starter, they have Hunter in CF. I would bet Theo called MIN, but was told no to Marte for Hunter.
PHI Has Bell at 3B, Rowand in CF. At the time Crisp was considered better than Rowand no deal here.
HOU Ensberg at 3B, I don't think Taveras or Burke nets you Marte
MIL Koskie at 3B, B. Clark for Marte umm BOS says no
PIT Sanchez at 3B, could use a 3B, not dealing Bay for Marte, Duffy umm no says Bos
LAD Could use a 3B I believe Saenz was starting for awhile until the Betemit deal. I think LA says no to Drew for Marte, though 20/20 hindsight says YES. Lofton or Ethier for Marte? Lofton is too old and Ethier is not proven enough for win now Bos
Enter CLE with Sizemore in CF and Crisp in LF. I am sure Theo says "hey what about Marte for Sizemore?" NO Way! Now CLE does have this up and coming player in Crisp. So they agree.

CFs that perhaps BOS should have traded for:1 Hunter(again I say that MIN said no to this deal and MIN knows what they are doing)
2. Baldelli- I think he is a little better than Crisp, but not for 2006 and Bos was/is in win now mode, the injury and most likely TBs asking price is too much.
3. Granderson- I just don't think DET does this deal
4. Drew- Probably the best fit, I think the fact that Bos "signed" Drew tells me that that BOS tried to get Drew, but was told no.

Marte just does not net BOS, Beltran, Sizemore, Wells or A. Jones. Looking back at this deal BOS made a good trade given who was available.

Now should BOS just have signed a FA CF? Probably, bu twho was available? That is for another day.

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Postby Snakes Gould » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:10 am

The Cow wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
J35J wrote: The Cow reminds me an awful lot of that Yankee fan (can't remember his ID) but they are both more knowledgable then people actually think


Having seen Cow post in a LOT of threads, I'd say there's a TON of evidence to the contrary.

And I think you underestimate how much fun I have in those exchanges.


Agnes lets looks at this trade from the Red Sox point of view. After the 2005 season the Red Sox had 4 ways to fill CF
1. Re-sign Damon, they did not do this and since the Red Sox were/are in win now mode they felt they needed to fill CF with the best talent AVAILABLE.
2. Sign FA CF- They chose not to do this, I believe Patterson, Finley and Wilson were some of the CFs out there.
3. Fill CF from within- The Sox felt that they had know in house candidate for CF, I believe Adam Stern was the leading contender, but he was looked upon as a #4 OF at best. The Sox could have also started Wily Mo in CF or was he acquired after Crisp, either way Wily Mo is more of a spot starter type in CF, not a regular.
4. Trade for a CF- They chose this option and they chose Crisp and remember that going into 2006 Crisp was considered an up and coming OF.

Now lets consider that the Red Sox plan was to deal Marte for the best available CF for the sake of this post becaus ewe could go on and on about other trade scenarios. So lets just see who the Sox could have gotten for Marte:
First lets cross off CFs from teams with quality 3B or promising youngsters:
LAA McPherson(the hope was that he would get healthy) so no Figgins
OAK Chavez, cross off Bradley, Kotsay and Payton
TOR Glaus cross off Wells, Rios and R. Johnson
BAL Mora cross off well nobody
NYY AROD cross off Damon
K.C. Teahan and Gordon cross off DeJesus
CWS Crede cross off B. Anderson and Posednik
ATL Chipper cross off A. Jones
FLA Miggy cross off well nobody
NYM Wright cross of Beltran
Nats Zimmerman cross off nobody
STL Rolen cross off Edmonds
CUBS ARAMIS cross off Pierre
CIN Encarnacion cross off Griffey and Freel
ARI Tracy cross off Byrnes

Now what is left?
SEA they have Beltre at 3B and J.Reed in CF and Ichiro in RF. You are not getting Ichiro fo rMarte. There were rumors of Reed to Bos, but Crisp was considered better than Reed.
TEX They have a quality guy at 3B in Blalock, he was rumored to be in alot of deals so maybe the Sox could get Mathews, but now way the Sox deal Marte for Mathews
TB They could use Marte and they could give up Baldelli or Gathright. Baldelli was coming off an injury. My guess is that TB wanted too much as usual. Marte does not net Crawford
DET I don't think they deal granderson for Marte, and BOS is not dealing Marte for Monroe.
MIN Could use a 3B as Batista is the starter, they have Hunter in CF. I would bet Theo called MIN, but was told no to Marte for Hunter.
PHI Has Bell at 3B, Rowand in CF. At the time Crisp was considered better than Rowand no deal here.
HOU Ensberg at 3B, I don't think Taveras or Burke nets you Marte
MIL Koskie at 3B, B. Clark for Marte umm BOS says no
PIT Sanchez at 3B, could use a 3B, not dealing Bay for Marte, Duffy umm no says Bos
LAD Could use a 3B I believe Saenz was starting for awhile until the Betemit deal. I think LA says no to Drew for Marte, though 20/20 hindsight says YES. Lofton or Ethier for Marte? Lofton is too old and Ethier is not proven enough for win now Bos
Enter CLE with Sizemore in CF and Crisp in LF. I am sure Theo says "hey what about Marte for Sizemore?" NO Way! Now CLE does have this up and coming player in Crisp. So they agree.

CFs that perhaps BOS should have traded for:1 Hunter(again I say that MIN said no to this deal and MIN knows what they are doing)
2. Baldelli- I think he is a little better than Crisp, but not for 2006 and Bos was/is in win now mode, the injury and most likely TBs asking price is too much.
3. Granderson- I just don't think DET does this deal
4. Drew- Probably the best fit, I think the fact that Bos "signed" Drew tells me that that BOS tried to get Drew, but was told no.

Marte just does not net BOS, Beltran, Sizemore, Wells or A. Jones. Looking back at this deal BOS made a good trade given who was available.

Now should BOS just have signed a FA CF? Probably, bu twho was available? That is for another day.

The Cow


wow, that might have been the longest, most pointless post ever on the cafe
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Postby Yoda » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:49 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
J35J wrote: The Cow reminds me an awful lot of that Yankee fan (can't remember his ID) but they are both more knowledgable then people actually think


Having seen Cow post in a LOT of threads, I'd say there's a TON of evidence to the contrary.



Amen... :-°
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:23 pm

The Cow wrote:Now should BOS just have signed a FA CF? Probably, bu twho was available? That is for another day.

The Cow


You do know that it is possible for both teams to "win" a trade? Arguing that it was the right move for the Tribe to trade away Crisp, does not mean that is was the wrong move for the Sox to trade for him. I've argued the first point, but said nothing about the second.

Boston at this point had three 3B in Lowell, Youkilis and Marte. As you said, they had a massive hole in CF. They are also at a point where they are contending NOW. So trading away a future value where you have a surplus for a current player where you have a hole makes all kinds of sense. From the Sox perspective, they would get a few years of a roughly average CF, losing only one player who might become very good. Worst case, Crisp has peaked early and he's a little below average, but certainly much better than Adam Stern. Best case, he makes another significant job and he's an excellent CF.

Getting Crisp can be a good move for the Sox at the same time getting Marte is a good move for the Indians. The relative value of players differs across teams.
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