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Young & Markakis

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Postby Half Massed » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:14 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Half Massed wrote:
Simulacrum wrote:
BravesGuy wrote:I don't know.... 3 home runs in one game is pretty impressive! :-D


urban legend, it's never really happened


Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. This is well-documented.

Some people are really high on Markakis in this thread. He was a decent prospect going into last year, but nothing outstanding. On the other hand, outstanding is generally the word used to describe Young's talent. I don't see the comparison. I'd take Young over Markakis in every draft, although I wouldn't take either of them any kind of early.



I do agree that Young has the higher ceiling. But, Markakis was more than a decent prospect going into last year, if anyone really looked closely (and my views on him are well documented from last spring)

Last spring Sickels gave him an A- and called him a "real stud". Delmon was ratedan A prospect.

On JDM last spring, their compilation on prospect rankings had Markakis as the 35th best prospect in the minors. Delmon was #2.

And others are certainly raising their ratings of Markakis based on his performance last year. It's not unusual for prospects like this to show a 10-15 percent improvement in their first few years in the majors.
http://www.rotoauthority.com/2006/08/th ... pment.html
This also documents why his numbers last year should be carefully considered. They are low because he struggled early, beforemaking the necessary adjustments. There is no doubt he was rushed, but it was because the O' correctly assessed that he was the type of player who coped well with that pressure.

So, Young is no doubt the bigger prospect, but Markakis was more than decent to begin with and certainly improved his comparative standing last year. Furthermore, in terms of make-up, Markakis seems to me to be the type of player who puts a real effort into improvinghis skills. Most of what I've seen from Delmon is a guy who seems to think he can do it all with talent. Sometimes that make-up gets a rude awakening in the MLB. While I expect Young to be the better ballplayer, I would not be surprised to see him flame out early and Markakis have the better career.


Well, by decent I still did mean prospect. I consistently saw him in the top 50, but usually in the lower portions, as opposed to Young, who was always top 3. I'm not saying Markakis is not, or won't be, a good player, I'm just saying that there's reason for that discrepancy in prospect rankings.

As for Young, he'll never be super-disciplined, but I think he's capable of change once he realizes he needs it. After the bat-throwing incident, he cleaned up his act and was a perfectly fine guy at the big league level according to all reports. Attitude is important, and I think that shows that he wants to succeed and will make adjustments. However, I do think it will take something big to make him make that adjustment. That may be how is career goes. He may start performing poorly and sink to low levels before adjusting and becoming great.
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Postby acapulco » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:25 am

Well Miss Agnes, what a wonderful prayer. Now, I'm going to pray for Delmon Young. I'm going to pray that he gets his anger under control. Because if he doesn't, he's going to be another Carl Everett or another Milton Bradley.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:34 am

acapulco wrote:Well Miss Agnes, what a wonderful prayer. Now, I'm going to pray for Delmon Young. I'm going to pray that he gets his anger under control. Because if he doesn't, he's going to be another Carl Everett or another Milton Bradley.


It brought tears to my eyes...especially this line: "Cow,
you open me with your vacantness."
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Postby The Cow » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:53 am

Here is what I think about this whole Young/Markakis thing. Lets look at the traditional 5x5 categories.

AVG- Young should hit for a higher AVG than Markakis I see Young as a guy who can hit .330 and Markakis as more of a .300 guy. I realize that Markakis has the better plater discipline, but OBP will not help your AVG it may help you score more runs, but it won't help your AVG. Edge Young.

HRs- I see Young as the guy that will hit more HRs. Maybe Young hits 39 and Markakis 34, i am talking about this year here, but a typical prime year, whcih could be next year or it could be 5 or 6 years from now. Edge Young

SBs- This should be a big edge for Young, I think Young could steal 30-40 bags. Markakis should peak at 10-15. Big edge Young here I think is little to debate here.

Runs- Mostly team driven, Markakis helps his cause by having the better OBP. Young helps his cause by stealing bags and hitting more HRs. I would call this even.

RBIs- I think Young has the edge here in that he should hit more HRs and he should get more hits. While Markakis is busy walking to 1B, Young will single someone in. Edge Young.

Thats the 5 traditional cats I think 4 favor Young quite easily. I will say that Markakis may be the safer player and he has better intangibles, meaning character etc. I still think Young has the talent to be a superstar type player, whereas Markakis should be a good-very good player. If I were to compare these two players to active players I would compare Young to Vlad(remember he used to steal bases) and Markakis to Matt Holliday.

The Cow

P.S. Agnes good to see that you have a sense of humor, nice poem!
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Postby ChipperJonesFanatic » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:53 am

Another forum filled with arguing.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:22 am

I'm not sure if you are talking about next year or over their careers, but assuming it's career, I'd disagree on BA. Here's the list of active major leaguers with a .330 BA:
Helton
Pujols
Ichiro

That's it. What generally happens is that a guy's career MLB batting average is 15 to 20 points lower than his career minor league average. The logic's pretty simple. In the majors almost every pitcher you face was one of the best pitchers in the minors. That trends to overwhelm park effects and everything else.

Over their careers, I expect both these guys to be in the .285-.295 range for BA. Young's likelyto be about 5 points higher, not 30.

I doubt Young steals 30-40 on a regular basis. He'll bat in the middle of the order, like Vlad, not Soriano. Like Vlad, he might steal 40 a couple years, but more than likely he'll be limited in his attempts and steal 15-25.

Runs and RBIs? Why bother? Too team and batting order dependent.

As I said from the beginning, Young's the better prospect. He could be Vlad. He could also be Darryl.
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Postby The Cow » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:51 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'm not sure if you are talking about next year or over their careers, but assuming it's career, I'd disagree on BA. Here's the list of active major leaguers with a .330 BA:
Helton
Pujols
Ichiro

That's it. What generally happens is that a guy's career MLB batting average is 15 to 20 points lower than his career minor league average. The logic's pretty simple. In the majors almost every pitcher you face was one of the best pitchers in the minors. That trends to overwhelm park effects and everything else.

Over their careers, I expect both these guys to be in the .285-.295 range for BA. Young's likelyto be about 5 points higher, not 30.

I doubt Young steals 30-40 on a regular basis. He'll bat in the middle of the order, like Vlad, not Soriano. Like Vlad, he might steal 40 a couple years, but more than likely he'll be limited in his attempts and steal 15-25.

Runs and RBIs? Why bother? Too team and batting order dependent.

As I said from the beginning, Young's the better prospect. He could be Vlad. He could also be Darryl.


For the batting AVG I was just talking about the player's peak years or prime years. I would still expect Young to be a career.300 hitter say .305 or so Markakis for his career about .285. I agree that Young will be more like Vlad in the SB department, in that he will steal for a few years and then move on to being just a power hitter. But the biggest point that agree with you on is that Young could be Vlad or he could be Mr. Strawberry 2.

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Postby Secret Avatar » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:58 am

I don't know about you guys, but I will grab Young WAY before Markakis in any draft in 2007, whether its a keeper or not. This is a no-brainer. You can argue over whether Markakis will have a little higher BA or hit a few more HR in 2007 -- personally, I think they will be comparable on BA and HR -- but Young should easily have 20+ more steals.
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