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Lilly and Cubs agree to 4-year, $40-million deal

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Postby Zito is God » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:15 pm

Meche is a league average pitcher (I can't stress this enough)...


I never understood why the league was crazy over Meche. Mediocrity at it's finest if you ask me.

BTW, I'm under 20 and throw mid 70s. I'll take a 100,000/year contract. At that price the league should be fighting over me because the salary is unheard of.
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Postby dcskater619 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:20 pm

Zito is God wrote:
dcskater619 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:This is arguably the worst signing (except for Padilla of course) in the entire offseason.


HA! coming from a guy who thinks "zito is god." id bet u anything lilly posts better numbers then zito this year.. some scouts believe hes the steal of this years market, and that he has better stuff then zito. On top of that, hes gonna be roughly half the price!

As a cubs fan, im very glad we signed him over Meche. He pitched well in the AL East which means he should thrive in the NL central. He strikes guys out and should have an era under 4. With our lineup, I'd say thats all we can really ask for.


When I win the bet will that be cash or check mate?

Yeah, after reading this post I realize you likely have no actual info on Ted Lilly, had never seen him pitch, have no stats to back up your "hunches", and basically show signs of being just another ignorant (but hopeful) Cub fan.

The only "scout" that would ever say Lilly has better stuff then Zito is you. Find me a link where anyone with any sort of credibility states that.

He pitched "well" against the AL Est? He had an ERA over 4 at home last year.

ERA under 4? Lilly has had one year where he landed an ERA under 4 (not by much) in his entire career. That year was 2002, he only made 16 starts as well. His career ERA is 4.60 and while he Ks guys at at moderately well rate (I'll give him around 6-7/9IP), he also gives up HRs at that rate as well. Being the die hard Cubs fan that you are, you should know how Wrigley works for non-groundball pitchers. You seem rather fanatic in your "bold" statements with no basis and no stats to back them up, a little research before making your post would have helped. Lilly has never thrown 200 innings in his life and that will surely be asked of him in a Cub uniform. To say that "some scout" said he was the bargain of the year is simply put, ridiculous. Ted Lilly screams mediocrity.

Now onto your Zito comparison, I'll make it simple:

Wins:
Lilly: 59
Zito: 102

ERA:
Lilly: 4.60
Zito: 3.55

Ks:
Lilly: 799
Zito: 1096

HRs:
Lilly: 144
Zito: 148 (keeping in mind that Zito consistently pitches 200 innings while Lilly...does not.)

Average IP per season:
Lilly: 151.1 (excluding Lilly's rookie year and non-starting year)
Zito: 204

Cy Youngs:
Lilly: 0
Zito: 1

Yeah, you sure look correct in this arguement. Listen buddy, assuming Zito does not go to Texas, I guarantee (barring injury of course) that he will have better stats across the board then Lilly. If he goes to Texas he will likely have a comparable ERA and slightly worse HRs given up ratio, but will still mow Lilly over in terms of fantasy prodctivity as well as the productivity for his own team.

Now theres an arguement for ya'!


fantasy productivity?? everyone knows zito is the most overrated piece of garbage in fantasy.. he managed to get a whopping 1 more win then lilly had last season (16 to 15) and had 151 strikeouts in 221 innings. Lilly struck out 160 in 181 innings. There WHIP's were very identical (1.4 to 1.43). So big deal, Zito pitched over 200 innings (walking 99 batters) while Lilly pitched 180, he was injured in 05 and pitched 197 in 04.. He played for the BLUE JAYS the last 3 years and never got any type of run support until last year.. In all last year, he had somewhere in the area of 10 more flyball outs then groundball outs. Looks pretty balanced to me, not exactly what u would call a "fly ball pitcher." ALLLLL this happened with Lilly pitching in the AL East by the way, by far against the best lineups in baseball. I can GUARENTEE you Zito will not even come close to being worth the contract hes looking for, and Lilly will produce similarly at half the price. You must be a moron to call this the worst signing of the season, especially after seeing Gil Meche's recent signing. And by the way, i only accept cash or money order.
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Postby acsguitar » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:23 pm

Zito stinks vs the Al East. Lilly stinks vs the Al east.

Zito is a better pitcher. but the fact that Lilly is compared to any pitcher that doesn't suck is strange
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Postby Zito is God » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:35 pm

fantasy productivity?? everyone knows zito is the most overrated piece of garbage in fantasy.. he managed to get a whopping 1 more win then lilly had last season (16 to 15) and had 151 strikeouts in 221 innings. Lilly struck out 160 in 181 innings. There WHIP's were very identical (1.4 to 1.43). So big deal, Zito pitched over 200 innings (walking 99 batters) while Lilly pitched 180, he was injured in 05 and pitched 197 in 04.. He played for the BLUE JAYS the last 3 years and never got any type of run support until last year.. In all last year, he had somewhere in the area of 10 more flyball outs then groundball outs. Looks pretty balanced to me, not exactly what u would call a "fly ball pitcher." ALLLLL this happened with Lilly pitching in the AL East by the way, by far against the best lineups in baseball. I can GUARENTEE you Zito will not even come close to being worth the contract hes looking for, and Lilly will produce similarly at half the price. You must be a moron to call this the worst signing of the season, especially after seeing Gil Meche's recent signing. And by the way, i only accept cash or money order.


Buddy, you're digging a hole you will not be able to climb out of sooner or later. Seems to me like after your comment, you are the only one on here that actually thinks Lilly is better (actually, likely the only one on the planet).

Ted Lelly is turning 32 years old, and your comments suggest that at 32 he will somehow wake up and start playing better then anyone ever imagined him to be able to. As I showed you above, Zito has better career stats across the board then Lilly (all the while being younger the Lilly).

As stated by others, you are quite incorrect to thyink that Zito will be receiving 20 million per year since no player on the market is and most likely won't be. Zito will likely receiver somewhere in the 16-17 neighborhood. At that price I take my guaranteed under 4 ERA, 15+ wins, 150 (at the absolutely minimum) Ks, and durability to be able to throw 200 innings as an absolute minimum (Zito has never been injured by the way).

Lilly pitched extremely poorly last year (as well as most of his career) and had horrid stats except for the 15 wins. How did he get those 15 wins? Last year Toronto's offense produced 809 runs (to Oakland's 771). Have you seen the Cubs offense?! They were third last in runs last year with a mere 716! Thats almost a 100 run dropoff, I guess the run production will take away the one thing Lilly had. Add that to a shaky bullpen, a ballpark that is less the favorable, a fan base that will boo the hell out of Lilly once he has one bad start (sooner rather then later) and you have one fun season ahead of you.

I think the quote by acs says it best:
Zito is a better pitcher. but the fact that Lilly is compared to any pitcher that doesn't suck is strange


I can't believe you actually are fighting for this, I don't see much support for your side however.
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Postby dcskater619 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:20 pm

Zito is God wrote:
fantasy productivity?? everyone knows zito is the most overrated piece of garbage in fantasy.. he managed to get a whopping 1 more win then lilly had last season (16 to 15) and had 151 strikeouts in 221 innings. Lilly struck out 160 in 181 innings. There WHIP's were very identical (1.4 to 1.43). So big deal, Zito pitched over 200 innings (walking 99 batters) while Lilly pitched 180, he was injured in 05 and pitched 197 in 04.. He played for the BLUE JAYS the last 3 years and never got any type of run support until last year.. In all last year, he had somewhere in the area of 10 more flyball outs then groundball outs. Looks pretty balanced to me, not exactly what u would call a "fly ball pitcher." ALLLLL this happened with Lilly pitching in the AL East by the way, by far against the best lineups in baseball. I can GUARENTEE you Zito will not even come close to being worth the contract hes looking for, and Lilly will produce similarly at half the price. You must be a moron to call this the worst signing of the season, especially after seeing Gil Meche's recent signing. And by the way, i only accept cash or money order.


Buddy, you're digging a hole you will not be able to climb out of sooner or later. Seems to me like after your comment, you are the only one on here that actually thinks Lilly is better (actually, likely the only one on the planet).

Ted Lelly is turning 32 years old, and your comments suggest that at 32 he will somehow wake up and start playing better then anyone ever imagined him to be able to. As I showed you above, Zito has better career stats across the board then Lilly (all the while being younger the Lilly).

As stated by others, you are quite incorrect to thyink that Zito will be receiving 20 million per year since no player on the market is and most likely won't be. Zito will likely receiver somewhere in the 16-17 neighborhood. At that price I take my guaranteed under 4 ERA, 15+ wins, 150 (at the absolutely minimum) Ks, and durability to be able to throw 200 innings as an absolute minimum (Zito has never been injured by the way).

Lilly pitched extremely poorly last year (as well as most of his career) and had horrid stats except for the 15 wins. How did he get those 15 wins? Last year Toronto's offense produced 809 runs (to Oakland's 771). Have you seen the Cubs offense?! They were third last in runs last year with a mere 716! Thats almost a 100 run dropoff, I guess the run production will take away the one thing Lilly had. Add that to a shaky bullpen, a ballpark that is less the favorable, a fan base that will boo the hell out of Lilly once he has one bad start (sooner rather then later) and you have one fun season ahead of you.

I think the quote by acs says it best:
Zito is a better pitcher. but the fact that Lilly is compared to any pitcher that doesn't suck is strange


I can't believe you actually are fighting for this, I don't see much support for your side however.


when did i say lilly was a better pitcher? i said he would have better numbers then zito this year.. thats all.. and much better value at ROUGHLY half the price.. i never said exactly half the price. you had nothing left to say so u criticized my argument with a bunch of bull... Its funny how your looking at last years run scoring numbers for the cubs.. wake up buddy they added alfonso soriano and will have a healthy derrek lee (MVP candidate) back.. remember how much time he missed? try again
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Postby dcskater619 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:22 pm

lol and i just noticed you said a shaky bullpen.. i would call eyre, howry, wood (if healthy), ohman, and wuertz above average. once again, you have no idea what your talking about. and no... zito's era is NOT guarenteed under 4.
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Postby bdrotoronto » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:29 pm

mweir145 wrote:
mikegp wrote:If the jays can't sign Meche now, there is no way they make the playoffs. Lilly in wrigley :-t. I'm not sure if I could back this up with stats, but from watching Lilly for a few seasons he seems to be a flyball pitcher. Watch out for the balls flying over the fence in wrigley.

I don't understand how anybody can say this. If they don't make the playoffs, it's certainly not going to be because they didn't sign Gil Meche. Meche is a league average pitcher (I can't stress this enough)...we could likely get production near what he would bring from one of our younger guys, or even Josh Towers (and by that I mean a 5 ERA over 180 or so innings).

I can't believe I'm saying this.. but I'd MUCH rather go into the season with Josh Towers at $2M than Meche at 5 yrs/$55M.

Good grief, that is one of the worst contracts I've ever seen!!.. :-o

No reason Towers can't be about half as good, and spend the other $9M on.. well, just about anything
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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:48 pm

dcskater619 wrote:lol and i just noticed you said a shaky bullpen.. i would call eyre, howry, wood (if healthy), ohman, and wuertz above average. once again, you have no idea what your talking about. and no... zito's era is NOT guarenteed under 4.


so you have 2 above average relievers and nothing that resembles a closer. watch out national league!
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Postby Zito is God » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:34 pm

when did i say lilly was a better pitcher? i said he would have better numbers then zito this year.. thats all.. and much better value at ROUGHLY half the price.. i never said exactly half the price. you had nothing left to say so u criticized my argument with a bunch of bull... Its funny how your looking at last years run scoring numbers for the cubs.. wake up buddy they added alfonso soriano and will have a healthy derrek lee (MVP candidate) back.. remember how much time he missed? try again


Having better numbers kinda makes you a better pitcher, we aren't going by looks here, we go by stats.

lol and i just noticed you said a shaky bullpen.. i would call eyre, howry, wood (if healthy), ohman, and wuertz above average. once again, you have no idea what your talking about..


Miner got to it before I did so go to his post below. If you call that a good bullpen, well, you're just an amateur at analyzing baseball stats.

and no... zito's era is NOT guarenteed under 4.


Out of Zito's 7 years, he has only had 1 year with an ERA over 4. 6:1? I'll take those odds in Vegas any day. Your "hunches" are getting more ridiculous. As I stated, unless he goes to Texas Zito is a lock for an ERA under 4 and better numbers then Lilly across the board barring injury.

You're making this even worse for yourself now. By providing the discussion with minimal stats and going all based on "hunches" you are looking quite bad at this point (I'm sure you noticed how much support you're getting as well). You remind me of me in my first year at the cafe when I went on hunches about Santana, we all know where that landed me. Stop being arrogant/ignorant and look over the stats once in a while. Ted Lilly and Barry Zito are not in the same league in terms of pitching...
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Postby rich101682 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:41 pm

Zito is God wrote:Ted Lilly and Barry Zito are not in the same league in terms of pitching...


They will be if Zito signs with an NL team...

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