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Tased for not showing ID; cops threaten passive onlookers.

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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:46 pm

RugbyD wrote:and another point: I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate that using a taser was an appropriate response. With at least 3 officers there it should have been relatively easy to subdue and cuff him if he became unruly or aggressive. It doesn't even look like they tried and instead were just lazy said "better him electrocuted than our unis wrinkled". bush league.


How were they supposed to know he didn't have a knife; or a gun! Here's a screaming, yelling madman in the library with no identification and who knows what motive and you're telling me it should have been easy?

A part of every police officers training is that they get tased. It's part of the training. Every one of them knows what it feels like. It's not electrocution. If you're a police officer and you start wrestling with a madman in a library who won't let you touch him or go near him, you're just asking to get stabbed.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:48 pm

thedude wrote:When will people learn not to mouth off to cops?


That sums it up right there. I hate authority. I hate it; and I don't think any rule or law should go unquestioned. That said, rule number 2: DON'T MOUTH OFF TO COPS.
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Postby RugbyD » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:56 pm

Coppermine wrote:How were they supposed to know he didn't have a knife; or a gun! Here's a screaming, yelling madman in the library with no identification and who knows what motive and you're telling me it should have been easy?

dude, you're basically advocating 'shoot first and ask questions later'. That's not how law enforcement is supposed to work under normal circumstances. If they had a particular reason to believe he had a weapon I be inclined to be ok with the tasing. Thus far we haven't heard that raised at all.

Re: 'don't mouth off to cops'. Do you say that because cops may act irrationally if you mouth off or b/c they are still deserving of respect if they have no business doing whateever they're doing that makes you consider mouthing off? Of course it is in your best interests not to regardless of the situation, but that's not the issue of principle i'm positing here.



I will be interested to see the pictures and other videos that come out on this. in the one video there were other students with phones out that had a much better vantage point.


And given the uncertainty surrounding the cuffing (nice catch whoever that was) i will retract all commments of mine regarding cuffing until the timeline of events if more firmly laid out. I will, however, stand by my assertion that multiple tasings were totally unwarranted because a single tasing can render a suspect completely incapable of following the cops' orders to stand up. Suspensions or firings are a must in this situation.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:59 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Coppermine wrote:How were they supposed to know he didn't have a knife; or a gun! Here's a screaming, yelling madman in the library with no identification and who knows what motive and you're telling me it should have been easy?

dude, you're basically advocating 'shoot first and ask questions later'. That's not how law enforcement is supposed to work under normal circumstances. If they had a particular reason to believe he had a weapon I be inclined to be ok with the tasing. Thus far we haven't heard that raised at all.

Re: 'don't mouth off to cops'. Do you say that because cops may act irrationally if you mouth off or b/c they are still deserving of respect if they have no business doing whateever they're doing that makes you consider mouthing off? Of course it is in your best interests not to regardless of the situation, but that's not the issue of principle i'm positing here.



I will be interested to see the pictures and other videos that come out on this. in the one video there were other students with phones out that had a much better vantage point.


And given the uncertainty surrounding the cuffing (nice catch whoever that was) i will retract all commments of mine regarding cuffing until the timeline of events if more firmly laid out. I will, however, stand by my assertion that multiple tasings were totally unwarranted because a single tasing can render a suspect completely incapable of following the cops' orders to stand up. Suspensions or firings are a must in this situation.


I disagree that its "shoot first, ask questions later." That oversimplifying this; this guy posed a risk the minute he refused to show ID and subsequently refused to leave. There is absolutely no reason to put yourself in that situation unless you're either crazy or dangerous... or both. The racial profiling excuse is out; this is a well-known policy at UCLA that every student was aware of.

If I'm a cop and someone tells me there is a guy in the library who has no student ID and will not leave at 11:30 at night, I'm sure as hell not going to assume he's selling cookies. At that moment, the very moment he refused to leave, in my opinion, every student in that library was in danger. There is no rational reason for it, and if he did it to make a point, he sure picked the wrong time and place.

We're also over exaggerating the effects of a taser. If this guy is on the ground and refusing to leave, I would bet he'd be injured far worse if it came to a struggle of him vs. 3-5 police officers.

And about the whole "medical condition" think; the student is filing a lawsuit against UCLA and nothing in it says anything about a medical condition or adverse health effects from the tasing. The lawyer stated today that he has a contusion on his right side from the taser; and that's it. If the taser was doing any kind of substantial damage, do you think he'd be yelling about the patriot act after getting tased?

As for the "don't mouth off to cops" argument; come on man, again, this guy was making a scene and egging on the cops. Late at night, no ID, refusing to show it anyway, refusing to leave, making a scene then yelling, screaming even... this is a crazy person. Like I said, if he was trying to make a point, it was idiotic.

The handcuffs thing is a big deal; if he was cuffed then tased, then I agree it was unnecessary and I'll admit that I was wrong in this. What it doesn't do is make excuses for this kid. He acted in a manner that was so irrational that I can't imagine how myself or any one of you would have reacted.

But I watched the whole video and he was tased shortly after he started screaming; and it seems he started screaming right about the time the cops tried to physically subdue him.
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Postby RugbyD » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:47 pm

Coppermine wrote:At that moment, the very moment he refused to leave, in my opinion, every student in that library was in danger.

That's a leap that even Carl Lewis would be in awe of. ;-)

Coppermine wrote:We're also over exaggerating the effects of a taser. If this guy is on the ground and refusing to leave, I would bet he'd be injured far worse if it came to a struggle of him vs. 3-5 police officers
.
Not at all. tasers are immediately and completely incapacitating. It takes far less functional ability to scream (reactively in pain or intentioanlly in obnoxiousness) than to make a series of complex motions via the skeletal muscle structure. Aside from when people die from tasing there isn't any indication of permanent injury. At the same time, after being tased, pain doesn't magically disappear and full body control instantly return. Every person will be different within a range. That range is known to include inability to get up or walk for several minutes. For the cops to repeatedly tase him makes absolutely zero sense when this is considered. If you demand an action from someone that you know may not be able to perform, but you tase them anyways for not doing it, you are committing an act of torture. And my definiteion of torture is more permissive than most.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:07 am

RugbyD wrote:
Coppermine wrote:At that moment, the very moment he refused to leave, in my opinion, every student in that library was in danger.

That's a leap that even Carl Lewis would be in awe of. ;-)


I stand by that comment, but if you feel that way then any argument is moot. I mean, this isn't the University of Redneckville, it's the University of Central Los Angeles.

More than anything, this is certainly worthy of a debate. As of now, there is no clear black and white explanation. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
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Postby HiddenIdentity » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:29 am

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story ... d=10398769


While the intial shock may be understandable to some, I don't see how the other 17 could be.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:40 am

HiddenIdentity wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story ... d=10398769


While the intial shock may be understandable to some, I don't see how the other 17 could be.


Taser gives five seconds of complete paralysis

Wednesday August 30, 2006
By Derek Cheng

Constable Mike Smith's body stiffened in an instant, his face grimaced, and he cried out in pain as he fell to the ground like a toppling tree trunk.

He had just had a series of 50,000 volt pulses at low amperage surge through his body - making his muscles tauten, paralysing him - for five seconds by means of a Taser gun.

"I couldn't move. No chance. My body was completely incapacitated from my feet to my head," he said.

But five seconds later, he felt fine.

"I could run away [from police], but if I knew that Taser was coming again, I wouldn't."

The demonstration yesterday at the Police College in Porirua was a preview for the 12-month taser trial that begins on Friday.

Police college instructor Darren Napier was "tasered" in another demonstration, the two dart-like probes embedding themselves in his back.

"I felt all my muscles convulsing and thought, 'Please, make it stop'."

He said he preferred the taser to being pepper-sprayed because the torture was over in five seconds.

Instructor Mark Leach agreed, after he took an hour to recover from being sprayed in another demonstration.

Afterwards he spat into a bucket for several minutes, gasping for air, his face turning a scorching red.

"It burns the eyes."

But the difference was obvious: a Tasered victim can't move, but a pepper-sprayed one, though blind, was still free to flail about.


Nice article HI; also, the number of police involved in shootings has gone down by nearly 10% since the introduction of the TASER:

A TASER is any member of a family of the most commercially recognized brand of electroshock guns, produced by TASER International. The name Taser is an acronym: "Thomas A. Swift's Electric Rifle". It was designed in 1969 by Arizona inventor Jack Cover; he named it for the science fiction teenage inventor and adventurer character Tom Swift


My girlfriend told me taser was an acronym; I called BS and was proven very wrong... but it's a dumb acronym.
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Postby Madison » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:06 am

This was posted on the football side:

Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn't have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their "drive-stun" method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up.


http://www.fantasyfootballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=304500&start=45

That would explain why the police expected him to get up. ;-)
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Postby RugbyD » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:51 am

Madison wrote:This was posted on the football side:

Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn't have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their "drive-stun" method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up.


http://www.fantasyfootballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=304500&start=45

That would explain why the police expected him to get up. ;-)

not necessarily. passive resistance, i.e. 'going limp' intentionally, cannot be countered with force aside from simply picking you up to move you. If he was resisting being lifted, tase away. If not, there is absolutely no grounds for tasing.

the more i hear, the more i dislike this guy, but there is still a right and wrong way to go about things.

and I would in all circumstances terminate the employment of the officer who threatened the onlookers with a tasing, both on personal conduct grounds and business grounds. his actions will deligitimize the entire police force in the eyes of the students; even if it is only him that deserves blame. you are only as strong as your weakest link.
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