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Tased for not showing ID; cops threaten passive onlookers.

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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:07 pm

Not having your driver's license with you while driving is not dangerous, (unless you don't' have one, but that just further proves my point).

The ID requirement at UCLA was established for safety reasons. It's also a University which has the right to instill whatever rules it feels is necessary to protect students. This seems like a reasonable request, one that every UCLA student interviewed for this story says was strictly enforced and known by all students. I can just imagine how many signs are posted in and around the library on the policy.

I think this kid was looking for a fight; I think that he went to the library without his card knowing he would be asked for it with a plan to yell about racial profiling and the patriot act. He may not have anticipated being tasered, but he was ready to yell and make a scene, or a point.

That's just speculation on my part; again, we don't know all the sides to this story. But I do think the comparisons and analogies people have been using for this have been a little out there.
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Postby thedude » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:19 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:And if he had his ID on him like he was supposed to have, then this wouldn't have happened either.

People are quick to lay the blame elsewhere, but it appears there was more than one easy way this kid could have avoided this situation.

and if a woman never goes out she can easily avoid getting raped.

there are a number of things the student could have done, some reasonable, some irrelevant, but this doesn't address the real issue which is the appropriateness of the tasing. Thus far, there has been no indication of an attempt at handcuffing, which IMO is the clear logical first response. The tasing could have been avoided if the cops had simply tried other normal, reasonable, less aggressive means first.


The first time we see the kid. He is clearly handcuffed.

@ 1:18 In this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4_s4Un0TkI
Last edited by thedude on Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:21 pm

thedude wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:And if he had his ID on him like he was supposed to have, then this wouldn't have happened either.

People are quick to lay the blame elsewhere, but it appears there was more than one easy way this kid could have avoided this situation.

and if a woman never goes out she can easily avoid getting raped.

there are a number of things the student could have done, some reasonable, some irrelevant, but this doesn't address the real issue which is the appropriateness of the tasing. Thus far, there has been no indication of an attempt at handcuffing, which IMO is the clear logical first response. The tasing could have been avoided if the cops had simply tried other normal, reasonable, less aggressive means first.


The first time we see the kid. He clearly handcuffed.

@ 1:18 In this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4_s4Un0TkI


So was he cuffed before or after being tazed?

What every account I read says is that this guy completely freaked out as soon as one of the officers touched him to escort him off the premises; and not only did he freak out, he dropped to the ground and started screaming... you think that was a good time to cuff him? Did they try? He kept screaming until he was tazed (and afterwards).
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:28 pm

thedude wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:And if he had his ID on him like he was supposed to have, then this wouldn't have happened either.

People are quick to lay the blame elsewhere, but it appears there was more than one easy way this kid could have avoided this situation.

and if a woman never goes out she can easily avoid getting raped.

there are a number of things the student could have done, some reasonable, some irrelevant, but this doesn't address the real issue which is the appropriateness of the tasing. Thus far, there has been no indication of an attempt at handcuffing, which IMO is the clear logical first response. The tasing could have been avoided if the cops had simply tried other normal, reasonable, less aggressive means first.


The first time we see the kid. He clearly handcuffed.

@ 1:18 In this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4_s4Un0TkI


I think the guy had already been tazed prior to being handcuffed though, but I believe he continued to refuse to go along with the officers and laid there and the shock from the tazer dart propped him back up at that part of the Daily Bruin news bit you linked.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:35 pm

Also bear in mind that the officers did not know he was a student; after all he refused to show his ID. For all they knew, he was just a crazy guy off the street regardless of how he was dressed. His behavior, before being tazed, I think can be categorized as deranged. He started screaming because an officer touched him.

From what I understand, police officers are trained to use these tazers (is it tasers or tazers???) when a suspect cannot be reasonably physically subdued. It's easy to say he should have been handcuffed before being tazed, but the video is unclear as to whether or not that was a reasonable alternative. If he dropped to the ground and started screaming as soon as he was touched, then is handcuffing a safe alternative to using non-lethal force? We're conditioned to think that tazers are an alternative to using a gun, but should they be an alternative to using handcuffs if officers think he poses a risk to themselves and others by trying to physically subdue him?

I'm not in law enforcement, I don't know the answers to all these questions. Just bear in mind that none of the officers knew that he was a student of the university.
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Postby Madison » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:26 pm

HiddenIdentity wrote:If you forget your license at home and get pulled over, is it OK for you to be tasered?

I mean, this did not seem like a dangerous situation. Its a college age student, in the middle of a library, who forgot his ID. This hardly seems like something that would pose a threat that creates the need to taser someone repeatedly.


If the officer tells me to get out of the car and I refuse, then I wouldn't be surprised at all to get hit with a taser.

Lots of things don't look like dangerous situations, but turn out to be very dangerous. Put yourself in the officers' places. Stranger, no ID, no clue who he is, what he's doing, or what he's going to do. He's refusing to comply, and only making the whole situation a problem. Your life as an officer could be on the line right here if this guy's packing a gun, bomb, knife, or whatever. You going to gamble, or are you going to subdue the person who refuses to cooperate and then figure it all out?

I said earlier that it does seem extreme, but none of us knows how it all started. The reports contradict and the video doesn't show it. Hard to say a whole lot, or throw the officers under a bus. Not to mention that this is solved if he simply carried an ID like he was supposed to, or cooperated with the police like we're all supposed to.


Rugby, well written, but at the same time one could argue that if the kid never left the house, this wouldn't have happened either. I'm not going to that extreme, simply saying he was required to have an ID and he didn't follow that requirement. Toss in not cooperating with the police, and I'd have to think you'd at least blame this idiot a little bit for the whole thing. 2 very dumb things, and easy to do, so why cause the scene? Either carry the ID, or cooperate with the police. Neither one would have been that big of a deal.



Cu, I totally agree. The officers had no clue who this guy was, and don't blame them for being a bit careful. Seems they went a little overboard towards the end, but without seeing the beginning, it's hard to say.




All this fiasco because some dumb kid refused to carry the ID he was required to carry, and then refused to cooperate with the police. Only in America would this even be a story. :-b
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Postby acsguitar » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:29 pm

Madison wrote:
HiddenIdentity wrote:If you forget your license at home and get pulled over, is it OK for you to be tasered?

I mean, this did not seem like a dangerous situation. Its a college age student, in the middle of a library, who forgot his ID. This hardly seems like something that would pose a threat that creates the need to taser someone repeatedly.


If the officer tells me to get out of the car and I refuse, then I wouldn't be surprised at all to get hit with a taser.

Lots of things don't look like dangerous situations, but turn out to be very dangerous. Put yourself in the officers' places. Stranger, no ID, no clue who he is, what he's doing, or what he's going to do. He's refusing to comply, and only making the whole situation a problem. Your life as an officer could be on the line right here if this guy's packing a gun, bomb, knife, or whatever. You going to gamble, or are you going to subdue the person who refuses to cooperate and then figure it all out?

I said earlier that it does seem extreme, but none of us knows how it all started. The reports contradict and the video doesn't show it. Hard to say a whole lot, or throw the officers under a bus. Not to mention that this is solved if he simply carried an ID like he was supposed to, or cooperated with the police like we're all supposed to.


Rugby, well written, but at the same time one could argue that if the kid never left the house, this wouldn't have happened either. I'm not going to that extreme, simply saying he was required to have an ID and he didn't follow that requirement. Toss in not cooperating with the police, and I'd have to think you'd at least blame this idiot a little bit for the whole thing. 2 very dumb things, and easy to do, so why cause the scene? Either carry the ID, or cooperate with the police. Neither one would have been that big of a deal.



Cu, I totally agree. The officers had no clue who this guy was, and don't blame them for being a bit careful. Seems they went a little overboard towards the end, but without seeing the beginning, it's hard to say.




All this fiasco because some dumb kid refused to carry the ID he was required to carry, and then refused to cooperate with the police. Only in America would this even be a story. :-b


Yea if dude was in Iran he would have been beheaded already
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Postby Lofunzo » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:33 pm

Coppermine wrote:Also bear in mind that the officers did not know he was a student; after all he refused to show his ID. For all they knew, he was just a crazy guy off the street regardless of how he was dressed. His behavior, before being tazed, I think can be categorized as deranged. He started screaming because an officer touched him.

From what I understand, police officers are trained to use these tazers (is it tasers or tazers???) when a suspect cannot be reasonably physically subdued. It's easy to say he should have been handcuffed before being tazed, but the video is unclear as to whether or not that was a reasonable alternative. If he dropped to the ground and started screaming as soon as he was touched, then is handcuffing a safe alternative to using non-lethal force? We're conditioned to think that tazers are an alternative to using a gun, but should they be an alternative to using handcuffs if officers think he poses a risk to themselves and others by trying to physically subdue him?

I'm not in law enforcement, I don't know the answers to all these questions. Just bear in mind that none of the officers knew that he was a student of the university.


To me, there is a lot of area between trying to physically subdue a suspect and tazering him. I don't see how 3 officers can't subdue him and then cuff him. The video is so poor that we will never know but it also seems to me that the officers played a part in escalating this. They didn't exactly act as peacemakers.
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Postby thedude » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:20 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
Coppermine wrote:Also bear in mind that the officers did not know he was a student; after all he refused to show his ID. For all they knew, he was just a crazy guy off the street regardless of how he was dressed. His behavior, before being tazed, I think can be categorized as deranged. He started screaming because an officer touched him.

From what I understand, police officers are trained to use these tazers (is it tasers or tazers???) when a suspect cannot be reasonably physically subdued. It's easy to say he should have been handcuffed before being tazed, but the video is unclear as to whether or not that was a reasonable alternative. If he dropped to the ground and started screaming as soon as he was touched, then is handcuffing a safe alternative to using non-lethal force? We're conditioned to think that tazers are an alternative to using a gun, but should they be an alternative to using handcuffs if officers think he poses a risk to themselves and others by trying to physically subdue him?

I'm not in law enforcement, I don't know the answers to all these questions. Just bear in mind that none of the officers knew that he was a student of the university.


To me, there is a lot of area between trying to physically subdue a suspect and tazering him. I don't see how 3 officers can't subdue him and then cuff him. The video is so poor that we will never know but it also seems to me that the officers played a part in escalating this. They didn't exactly act as peacemakers.



I suppose they could have used their nightsticks to subdue him, but instead they deciede to use their tazers which cause no injury (unless you have a heart conditionImage)

They only place where the police might, might, have gone over board was tazering him four times.

I was onced questioned by police when i was walking down the street, when i had done nothing wrong (apprently they were looking more a guy who had just fled a drud deal gone bad wearing a leather jacket and red cap, which i also happend to be wearing). They told me to keep my hands in plain sight, and step infornt of their cruisor. I suppose i could have started yelling and noncomplying, but i knew by doing so ran the risk of getting arrested and/or shot (they had their hands on their sidearms). Instead i clamly did as they said. And they let me go after i presented them with id, emptied my pockets, and explained that i had an albi.

When will people learn not to mouth off to cops?
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Postby Lofunzo » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:36 pm

He said numerous times that he had a medical condition. For the sake of the cops, I hope so.
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