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Postby thedude » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:12 pm

bleach168 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
I disagree. If the system's broken, why is the game so competitive?


Competitive is a subjective term.

You may cite the 7 different world series winners, but the variety of playoff teams has been limited to 10-12 teams during that same time span. The regular season is much more indicative of a team's quality rather than the crapshoot playoffs.


It is more competive, because more teams are able to resign their big name free agents.

Like Been Sheets with the Brewers and Oswalt with the 'Stros.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:15 pm

thedude wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:Alright, well I guess I'm alone in my thinking. That's alright though, definately not the first time ;-D

I think there are two things that can be done to bring baseball back to the people. One would require some sort of "reverse collusion" where owners agree to spend less on players and in turn, charge less for tickets beer and food. The other is to make players contracts less guranteed money, and more incentive based moneies. "You want your money, get off your arse and earn it Kerry Wood!" Call me a dreamer.....



Player contracts have nothing to with ticket & food prices.

Player contracts are fixed costs, so teams have to pay them regardless of how many fans attend games. They set food and ticket prices at the levels that maximize prices.

The way players affect ticket prices is by shifting demand. Better players cause greater demand and thus higher ticket prices. That is why the red sox are able to charge more for tickets than the yankees despite having a smaller payroll (there is greater demand for red sox tickets, so they can charge more).

The only way owners are going to decrease ticket prices, is if demand falls. So it is in their best interests to feild competive teams. The way to feild a competive team is to spend money on free agents. That is why free agents get so much money.

It is all pretty simple economics.


It may seem like they're setting food/ticket prices in order to maximize prices, but it's probably profits. ;-7 :-b

Just giving you a hard time. :-D

You've also got a supply issue going on with the Sox. Since Fenway only seats 33,000 or whatever, there are a lot few tickets to be had.

But you're right. It's all simple economics. ;-D
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Postby thedude » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:36 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
thedude wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:Alright, well I guess I'm alone in my thinking. That's alright though, definately not the first time ;-D

I think there are two things that can be done to bring baseball back to the people. One would require some sort of "reverse collusion" where owners agree to spend less on players and in turn, charge less for tickets beer and food. The other is to make players contracts less guranteed money, and more incentive based moneies. "You want your money, get off your arse and earn it Kerry Wood!" Call me a dreamer.....



Player contracts have nothing to with ticket & food prices.

Player contracts are fixed costs, so teams have to pay them regardless of how many fans attend games. They set food and ticket prices at the levels that maximize prices.

The way players affect ticket prices is by shifting demand. Better players cause greater demand and thus higher ticket prices. That is why the red sox are able to charge more for tickets than the yankees despite having a smaller payroll (there is greater demand for red sox tickets, so they can charge more).

The only way owners are going to decrease ticket prices, is if demand falls. So it is in their best interests to feild competive teams. The way to feild a competive team is to spend money on free agents. That is why free agents get so much money.

It is all pretty simple economics.


It may seem like they're setting food/ticket prices in order to maximize prices, but it's probably profits. ;-7 :-b

Just giving you a hard time. :-D

D'oh!

You've also got a supply issue going on with the Sox. Since Fenway only seats 33,000 or whatever, there are a lot few tickets to be had.

But you're right. It's all simple economics. ;-D



Actually comparing Red Sox and Yankees is kinda a sticky situation and there many more factors at play (Competition from the Mets, broadway shows, ect...). Finding coming up with a perfect example is impossible.

I am at least happy that you understand my point.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:12 pm

bleach168 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
I disagree. If the system's broken, why is the game so competitive?


Competitive is a subjective term.

You may cite the 7 different world series winners, but the variety of playoff teams has been limited to 10-12 teams during that same time span. The regular season is much more indicative of a team's quality rather than the crapshoot playoffs.


Well, no, 17 teams have made the play-offs over the last 7 years, not 10-12. And that's as good or better than any other professional sport, adjusting for the fact that baseball allows a far smaller percentage of teams to make the play-offs at all.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:16 pm

Chicago RedSox wrote:Alright, well I guess I'm alone in my thinking. That's alright though, definately not the first time ;-D

I think there are two things that can be done to bring baseball back to the people. One would require some sort of "reverse collusion" where owners agree to spend less on players and in turn, charge less for tickets beer and food. The other is to make players contracts less guranteed money, and more incentive based moneies. "You want your money, get off your arse and earn it Kerry Wood!" Call me a dreamer.....


I am always curious why people think that if you give a monopolist control not only over the ability to set his prices, but the ability to artificially lower his costs, out of the kind and generous goodness of his heart, he'll give you free money.

You're a dreamer.
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Postby bleach168 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:37 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
bleach168 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
I disagree. If the system's broken, why is the game so competitive?


Competitive is a subjective term.

You may cite the 7 different world series winners, but the variety of playoff teams has been limited to 10-12 teams during that same time span. The regular season is much more indicative of a team's quality rather than the crapshoot playoffs.


Well, no, 17 teams have made the play-offs over the last 7 years, not 10-12. And that's as good or better than any other professional sport, adjusting for the fact that baseball allows a far smaller percentage of teams to make the play-offs at all.


Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up. But I figured I'd look up the NFL since you went to the trouble to do MLB.

In the NFL, 38% of teams make the playoffs each year.
91% of the teams (29 out of 32) have been able to make the playoffs at least once in the past 7 years.

In MLB, 27% of teams make the playoffs each year.
57% of the teams have been able to make the playoffs at least once in the past 7 years.

Someone better than me at statistics can figure out which is more competitive, but just by eyeballing it, it looks like the NFL is more competitive.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:17 am

bleach168 wrote:Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up. But I figured I'd look up the NFL since you went to the trouble to do MLB.

In the NFL, 38% of teams make the playoffs each year.
91% of the teams (29 out of 32) have been able to make the playoffs at least once in the past 7 years.

In MLB, 27% of teams make the playoffs each year.
57% of the teams have been able to make the playoffs at least once in the past 7 years.

Someone better than me at statistics can figure out which is more competitive, but just by eyeballing it, it looks like the NFL is more competitive.


Well, there's lots more sophisticated analyses than that out there. The book, The Wages of Wins has a good analysis of competitive balance. The best measure used is neither winners or play-off teams, but what's called the Noll-Scully measure (basically, it looks at how every team performs over the course of the season).

The book shows a number of things, including the fact that over the last 20 years football has had the most competitive balance. But, baseball is not far behind. Baseball's competitive balance has also been improving, not worsening. Furthermore, there's almost no relationship between the success of a league (in terms of revenue, attendance, etc.) and competitive balance.

And, the way to improve comepetitive balance has little to do with free agents and player contracts.
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Postby TB13 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:27 am

Yoda wrote:They are not asking too much. Teams are paying them too much.

That's about as well as one can put it.
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Postby nikku88 » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:15 am

bleach168 wrote:Someone better than me at statistics can figure out which is more competitive, but just by eyeballing it, it looks like the NFL is more competitive.


The NFL gives off that illusion, but it's because of the unbalanced schedule. Some bad team will get a very easy schdule and make the playoffs and then get destroyed in the 1st round. Imagine 50 games between the Royals and the Rays.
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Postby CadensDad » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:14 am

nikku88 wrote:
bleach168 wrote:Someone better than me at statistics can figure out which is more competitive, but just by eyeballing it, it looks like the NFL is more competitive.


The NFL gives off that illusion, but it's because of the unbalanced schedule. Some bad team will get a very easy schdule and make the playoffs and then get destroyed in the 1st round. Imagine 50 games between the Royals and the Rays.



I love your qoute at the bottom of your SIG. That's from one of the funniest movies I've seen in a long time and it's so true.
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