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Postby Madison » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:59 pm

1337_Dude wrote:
Madison wrote:
1337_Dude wrote:I disagree about how black and white this is. He couldn't have been too clear, because he left room for the coaches to misinterpret what he was said during their follow up conversation to his e-mail.


The coach got the email before the season started. The owner attended every game except for the last game. In the last game of the season the coach broke the rule. Do you really think the coach was unaware of a rule that existed all season long? If so, then you believe the coach to be a HUGE moron.

I can only go by what the article says and it seems the coach and the assistant coaches were under the same assumption that the final call was up to them.

When the coaches got the e-mail, they said, they spoke to Hinkle and believed that he understood that the coaches would decide where his son played.

"There was a phone call with Hinkle after that initial e-mail, and I thought we had an understanding on how we were going to coach the kids," said the fired assistant coach, Bill Burnham.


I read the article. Twice in fact. ;-)

What I'm saying is that I don't believe for one second that going into the final game of the season that the coach didn't know what the rule was. Every practice, every minute of defense, etc. I do not see how the coach didn't know exactly what the rule was by the time the final game of the season rolled around.

Coppermine wrote:See, I disagree; if you put it as right/wrong as you do, you have to think that perhaps the coach did what he did because it was best for the team (as indicated from the article) and that he did, in fact, play the kid... only on offense; because he thought perhaps it would be more beneficial in the game (which they won). I have to think that maybe the coach questioned the authority of the commissioner and made a decision as coach that he thought was right. These are the kinds of people we should admire. Those who blindly accept "the rules" as set by egomaniacal youth football coaches, as opposed to those who actually care about the team. If the coach knew he was doing something that may get him fired then, good for him! He should do what he thinks is right as coach, not as some clown whose coaching is orchestrated by the commish. I'm not going to argue that it's certainly within the rights of the commissioner to do what he did... I just think it sucks and good for the coach to do what he thought was best for the team... not some nitwit's kid.


So owners have no rights as to how to run a business they own? 8-o

So I guess the guy at McDonalds should be patted on the back if he refuses to ask if you want to supersize your meal because he knows that's an annoying question? I'll lay my money on that guy getting fired for not following the rules.

How about a food employee that doesn't wash his hands after going to the john? Hey, it's quicker and faster than taking the time to wash up, and just because ownership says he has to, that doesn't mean he shouldn't be patted on the back for fighting "the man", right? ;-7

It's actually quite admirable that the owner would go to all the cost and trouble to set up an entire league of over 1,000 kids in order to give his son the best competition possible. All that work, time, and money, and then the coach intentionally does the opposite of what the entire thing was set up for. Now the owner is the bad guy for firing the coach and trying to bring in a new coach?

Blown way, way out of proportion. :-/
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:07 pm

this is awful :-t
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Postby Coppermine » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:31 pm

Coppermine wrote:See, I disagree; if you put it as right/wrong as you do, you have to think that perhaps the coach did what he did because it was best for the team (as indicated from the article) and that he did, in fact, play the kid... only on offense; because he thought perhaps it would be more beneficial in the game (which they won). I have to think that maybe the coach questioned the authority of the commissioner and made a decision as coach that he thought was right. These are the kinds of people we should admire. Those who blindly accept "the rules" as set by egomaniacal youth football coaches, as opposed to those who actually care about the team. If the coach knew he was doing something that may get him fired then, good for him! He should do what he thinks is right as coach, not as some clown whose coaching is orchestrated by the commish. I'm not going to argue that it's certainly within the rights of the commissioner to do what he did... I just think it sucks and good for the coach to do what he thought was best for the team... not some nitwit's kid.


Madison wrote:So owners have no rights as to how to run a business they own? 8-o

So I guess the guy at McDonalds should be patted on the back if he refuses to ask if you want to supersize your meal because he knows that's an annoying question? I'll lay my money on that guy getting fired for not following the rules.

How about a food employee that doesn't wash his hands after going to the john? Hey, it's quicker and faster than taking the time to wash up, and just because ownership says he has to, that doesn't mean he shouldn't be patted on the back for fighting "the man", right? ;-7

It's actually quite admirable that the owner would go to all the cost and trouble to set up an entire league of over 1,000 kids in order to give his son the best competition possible. All that work, time, and money, and then the coach intentionally does the opposite of what the entire thing was set up for. Now the owner is the bad guy for firing the coach and trying to bring in a new coach?

Blown way, way out of proportion. :-/


No, you're missing my point; because I see yours. If it's a question of whether or not he has the "right" then, in fact, he does. What I'm trying to say is that good for this coach for doing what he thinks is right for his team. He stood up to the commissioner. Maybe it's a question of business ethics, if you want to look at this league as a business. It was also sort of a sneaky, underhanded "deal" he had with this coach. But in my opinion, the coach was doing this because he wanted to; not because it was his career. If the commish said to him "You can't be coach of my son unless he plays defense every game" then I'd sure as hell say sure thing because I would want to be coach. Then the coach defies the authority of the commissioner and does what he thinks is the best move for the team to win. He's the Che Guevara of youth football. Even if it is technically his fault that the team wasn't allowed to play in the finals because the commissioner wanted to make an example out of him, well, I doubt many people would see it that way, and he knew it. Viva la defiant football coach!
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Postby Madison » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:35 pm

Coppermine wrote:No, you're missing my point; because I see yours. If it's a question of whether or not he has the "right" then, in fact, he does. What I'm trying to say is that good for this coach for doing what he thinks is right for his team. He stood up to the commissioner. Maybe it's a question of business ethics, if you want to look at this league as a business. It was also sort of a sneaky, underhanded "deal" he had with this coach. But in my opinion, the coach was doing this because he wanted to; not because it was his career. If the commish said to him "You can't be coach of my son unless he plays defense every game" then I'd sure as hell say sure thing because I would want to be coach. Then the coach defies the authority of the commissioner and does what he thinks is the best move for the team to win. He's the Che Guevara of youth football. Even if it is technically his fault that the team wasn't allowed to play in the finals because the commissioner wanted to make an example out of him, well, I doubt many people would see it that way, and he knew it. Viva la defiant football coach!


No, I see your point about the coach, and if this was just some run of the mill parent that simply wanted his kid to play nothing but defense, every minute of practice, yadda, yadda, yadda, I'd fully agree with you.

What I'm pointing out is that the league wouldn't even exist without the owner, and following a very simple rule that the owner says to follow, is a very small and easy price to pay for what they got in return. It's not like he said all the kids had to run 50 miles a day or anything. He simply said his son plays every single minute of defense since that's the exact reason the owner built the league to begin with. Makes sense, doesn't it?

As to the part I bolded, the kids could have played. They chose not to. Not the owner's fault on that. He wanted to bring in a new coach and let the kids play. The kids chose not to play.

So spread the blame around. Blame the coach for breaking the rules. Blame the kids for not wanting to play under a different coach for one lousy game. Blame the parents for not making sure the league was set up the way they wanted it set up. Don't just blame the guy who funded, built, and set up a league for 1,000+ kids and expected one very tiny rule to be followed. ;-)

Heck, with the way people are laying all the blame squarely at his feet, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the owner just shut down the entire league. 1,000+ kids lose their football program because people take the easy way out and not look at this objectively. Tragic.
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Postby Coppermine » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:16 pm

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:No, you're missing my point; because I see yours. If it's a question of whether or not he has the "right" then, in fact, he does. What I'm trying to say is that good for this coach for doing what he thinks is right for his team. He stood up to the commissioner. Maybe it's a question of business ethics, if you want to look at this league as a business. It was also sort of a sneaky, underhanded "deal" he had with this coach. But in my opinion, the coach was doing this because he wanted to; not because it was his career. If the commish said to him "You can't be coach of my son unless he plays defense every game" then I'd sure as hell say sure thing because I would want to be coach. Then the coach defies the authority of the commissioner and does what he thinks is the best move for the team to win. He's the Che Guevara of youth football. Even if it is technically his fault that the team wasn't allowed to play in the finals because the commissioner wanted to make an example out of him, well, I doubt many people would see it that way, and he knew it. Viva la defiant football coach!


No, I see your point about the coach, and if this was just some run of the mill parent that simply wanted his kid to play nothing but defense, every minute of practice, yadda, yadda, yadda, I'd fully agree with you.

What I'm pointing out is that the league wouldn't even exist without the owner, and following a very simple rule that the owner says to follow, is a very small and easy price to pay for what they got in return. It's not like he said all the kids had to run 50 miles a day or anything. He simply said his son plays every single minute of defense since that's the exact reason the owner built the league to begin with. Makes sense, doesn't it?

As to the part I bolded, the kids could have played. They chose not to. Not the owner's fault on that. He wanted to bring in a new coach and let the kids play. The kids chose not to play.

So spread the blame around. Blame the coach for breaking the rules. Blame the kids for not wanting to play under a different coach for one lousy game. Blame the parents for not making sure the league was set up the way they wanted it set up. Don't just blame the guy who funded, built, and set up a league for 1,000+ kids and expected one very tiny rule to be followed. ;-)

Heck, with the way people are laying all the blame squarely at his feet, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the owner just shut down the entire league. 1,000+ kids lose their football program because people take the easy way out and not look at this objectively. Tragic.


Good for the kids for not playing to and standing up for their coach, who they clearly believe in! They'd rather NOT PLAY than play for someone else. That speaks volumes to me. It says that, to these kids, the experience they had this season with their coach and the principle of the matter is more important than the championship. I mean these kids are 12-14. How noble of a move is that? Did the commissioner figure that his demand would make this coach out to be the loser here?

Nah, the kids aren't playing because the commissioner fired their coach, because they chose to stand by him. Come on Mad, I'm trying to find some humility in there... and I'm trying to put myself in the position of anyone but this commissioner. This isn't the NFL, it's not big business, and it's not politics. It's youth sports. The greatest tragedy in youth sports, other than an "everybody wins" attitude, is how cutthroat it's become. ACS mentioned before that his dad watched his at-bats in little league from center field so he wouldn't have to hear the other parents belittle everyone. No one gives two craps about the kids who play.
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Postby Madison » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:42 pm

Coppermine wrote:Good for the kids for not playing to and standing up for their coach, who they clearly believe in! They'd rather NOT PLAY than play for someone else. That speaks volumes to me. It says that, to these kids, the experience they had this season with their coach and the principle of the matter is more important than the championship. I mean these kids are 12-14. How noble of a move is that? Did the commissioner figure that his demand would make this coach out to be the loser here?

Nah, the kids aren't playing because the commissioner fired their coach, because they chose to stand by him. Come on Mad, I'm trying to find some humility in there... and I'm trying to put myself in the position of anyone but this commissioner. This isn't the NFL, it's not big business, and it's not politics. It's youth sports. The greatest tragedy in youth sports, other than an "everybody wins" attitude, is how cutthroat it's become. ACS mentioned before that his dad watched his at-bats in little league from center field so he wouldn't have to hear the other parents belittle everyone. No one gives two craps about the kids who play.


2 things and I'll give up. :-D

First, sure, pat the kids on their back for their loyalty. No problems with that here. Simply pointing out that no one took their playoff game away from them other than themselves, and that's a simple fact. ;-)

And lastly, remember that the owner did not put the league together out of the goodness of his heart for all the kids. He did it for one simple reason:

"This entire league exists so he can play defense on the best team in his weight class."


Anything beyond that, and he could care less as it's not the reason he put the league together. Expecting anything beyond that out of him is naive, as his reasoning for doing all of it is quite clear, and it had nothing to do with anything other than what he wanted for his son. Selfish on his part? Maybe. Morally incorrect reasoning for it? Maybe. He tried his best to do something to give his son the best possible start he could, so at the same time, it's quite admirable that he went to such lengths, and so many people (kids) benefitted from what he did. Not to mention the honesty. He flat said why the league exists. Didn't hide it, didn't try to be a good guy. Just flat said it. So with all of that, I don't see the need to lay the full blame at his feet. Spread it around, plenty of people helped get this story to where it is.
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:45 pm

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:Good for the kids for not playing to and standing up for their coach, who they clearly believe in! They'd rather NOT PLAY than play for someone else. That speaks volumes to me. It says that, to these kids, the experience they had this season with their coach and the principle of the matter is more important than the championship. I mean these kids are 12-14. How noble of a move is that? Did the commissioner figure that his demand would make this coach out to be the loser here?

Nah, the kids aren't playing because the commissioner fired their coach, because they chose to stand by him. Come on Mad, I'm trying to find some humility in there... and I'm trying to put myself in the position of anyone but this commissioner. This isn't the NFL, it's not big business, and it's not politics. It's youth sports. The greatest tragedy in youth sports, other than an "everybody wins" attitude, is how cutthroat it's become. ACS mentioned before that his dad watched his at-bats in little league from center field so he wouldn't have to hear the other parents belittle everyone. No one gives two craps about the kids who play.


2 things and I'll give up. :-D

First, sure, pat the kids on their back for their loyalty. No problems with that here. Simply pointing out that no one took their playoff game away from them other than themselves, and that's a simple fact. ;-)

And lastly, remember that the owner did not put the league together out of the goodness of his heart for all the kids. He did it for one simple reason:

"This entire league exists so he can play defense on the best team in his weight class."


Anything beyond that, and he could care less as it's not the reason he put the league together. Expecting anything beyond that out of him is naive, as his reasoning for doing all of it is quite clear, and it had nothing to do with anything other than what he wanted for his son. Selfish on his part? Maybe. Morally incorrect reasoning for it? Maybe. He tried his best to do something to give his son the best possible start he could, so at the same time, it's quite admirable that he went to such lengths, and so many people (kids) benefitted from what he did. Not to mention the honesty. He flat said why the league exists. Didn't hide it, didn't try to be a good guy. Just flat said it. So with all of that, I don't see the need to lay the full blame at his feet. Spread it around, plenty of people helped get this story to where it is.


Yeah, I'll let it go at that because you are right in your point, I just think it sucks.

Hopefully no one will join that guy's rigged, BS, "for-my-son-only" league next year anyway.

Who knows if the kid will even want to.

In the end, the real loser will be the commish.
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:55 pm

There is justice in the world!

The South County Raptors might suit up after all, at least for one more game.

Just days before the team of 12- to 14-year-old boys from southern Fairfax County was headed to the playoffs, their season abruptly ended when the league commissioner fired the head coach and an assistant coach -- all for moving his son from defense to offense in the final game of the regular season, according to the former coaches and players' parents.

"We're glad to do this" for the South County Raptors, says Mark Meana, chairman of the Fairfax County Youth Football League. "We didn't like this situation from the start."

Now, some league officials are coming to the team's defense. It won't be the championship they dreamed of winning, but plans were drawn up yesterday for the team to play in a bowl game sponsored by the Fairfax County Youth Football League this month.

League Chairman Mark Meana said yesterday that he notified the coaches that the Raptors would play in a game against the winner of their division or an all-star team.

"We're glad to do this," Meana said. "We didn't like this situation from the start. We have never been faced with a situation like this before, the personalization of one team, and so we can't change what happened, but we can do this."

Meana said that if the Raptors' players and parents go for it, the game would be played -- regardless of whether Dan Hinkle, the South County Youth Association commissioner who fired the coaches, agreed.

"If he doesn't let us use his equipment, we have already found other teams who will donate equipment and jerseys," Meana said.

Hinkle said yesterday that he would allow the Raptors to use the equipment. "I support [the league] trying to do something for the kids. I'm behind it 100 percent, using the equipment and the facilities."

In fact, Hinkle said, he would not stand in the way of letting the entire coaching staff return to coach the bowl game, although Meana made it clear that the coaches would return regardless. Hinkle would not comment on the dispute he had with the coaches last week. "I don't want to talk about it until I can review the situation with the Fairfax County Youth Football League," Hinkle said.

The football league is one of the area's largest youth sports programs, made up of 314 teams in various weight and age categories. Hinkle is commissioner of the South County Youth Association, one of 23 clubs in the league. Hinkle founded the association last year and funded the creation of 14 football teams within his organization, including the Raptors.

James Owens, who was the Raptors' head coach, said that he hopes the players decide to play in the bowl game but that he is still unhappy that his team did not get a chance to play in the playoffs.

"I am willing to coach the team if those kids want to play. The parents are going to have to make that decision. I think it is a good thing, but it is still not resolving the issue of [the league] dealing with [Hinkle]. They haven't dealt with him yet," Owens said.

Meana said that because of what happened between Hinkle and the Raptors' coaches, it is possible that a group of parents could come forward to take over running the South County Youth Association. He said the league would have to consider awarding the league to another group if one came forward.

"We are going to look at our bylaws and his application form to see if he has maintained the integrity of the organization as a member club, and we'll see where that goes," Meana said.

Many of the 23 clubs that make up the Fairfax County League are run by parent committees, but it is not unique to have one person run a club, Meana said. "It is not easy to do," he said, "and he asked for a lot of help from us on this and that, but whether he took the help, we don't know."

While the league continues to review its bylaws and try to devise a way to ensure that the Raptors' experience does not happen again, parents and players will get together today or tomorrow to decide whether they want to play one more game.

Michael Holland, 13, the team's middle linebacker, has already made up his mind. "I definitely want to," he said. "I'm pretty excited."


[The Commissioner, Hinkle] might want to look to the example set by the boys, who gave up a playoff spot rather than walk away from their coaches and who worried that their teammate, whose father created the situation, would feel bad. We can't think of a better definition of being a good sport.
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ESPN: Page 2 wrote:November's Biggest Jerk in Sports:
Once your columnist lived in Chicago, and besides the pizza and theater scene, what was great about the Windy City was that just when you thought that every conceivable form of civic corruption imaginable to the human mind had already been tried, you would pick up the morning newspaper and learn on the front-page news of a new, entirely original type of graft. Similarly, one might think every type of bad sportsmanship has already been tried. You might think that until you read this. In a front-page story in the Washington Post, Timothy Dwyer reports on a youth football league commissioner who fired a team's coach, on the eve the playoffs, because the coach failed to play the commissioner's son exactly as the commissioner demanded. How could the commissioner get away with this firing? Many youth leagues are not affiliated with any county, school system or accrediting body, and are essentially the private fiefdoms of their commissioners. Reader Darren Rusakiewicz of Odenton, Md., wrote, "I had to read this article twice before I really believed what this guy did. Are there any words stronger than 'reprehensible' to describe this chump?" The bad sport's name is Dan Hinkle, and reading this story I thought, first, Dan Hinkle is an astonishing jerk; second, imagine being his son, exposed to general ridicule because of a jerk father. The son's team's seemed ruined, but nobly so. All the other players refused to participate in the playoff game after their coach was fired. So ESPN salutes the middle-school boys of the South County Raptors: boys, you showed admirable good sportsmanship, while the adults around you were letting you down. As for the commissioner of the South County Association of Fairfax County, Va., there's no need to wait until the end of the month -- Dan Hinkle is TMQ's Biggest Jerk in Sports for November. Good sportsmanship footnote: The Fairfax County Youth Football League, also private, just arranged for the South County Raptors to play a "bowl game" against its champion, and the fired coaches will be the ones to coach.
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Postby Madison » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:08 pm

See what I mean about overblown? You'd think he raped and killed the boys on the teams his son played against. "Biggest Jerk in Sports"? There are far worse guys out there.

Oh, and note that he did say the team was welcome to use the equipment and facilities, since you were so kind as to bold an irrelevant part of the story.

Hinkle said yesterday that he would allow the Raptors to use the equipment. "I support [the league] trying to do something for the kids. I'm behind it 100 percent, using the equipment and the facilities."

In fact, Hinkle said, he would not stand in the way of letting the entire coaching staff return to coach the bowl game,


Now he's obviously not happy about the coach coming back, but he really didn't seem to have a problem with them using the equipment and facilities.

Just pointing it out to be fair of course. Unlike those who don't really look at it, and choose to not think rationally (like the idiot in the article).
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:32 pm

Madison wrote:See what I mean about overblown? You'd think he raped and killed the boys on the teams his son played against. "Biggest Jerk in Sports"? There are far worse guys out there.


I think it was just for November; I agree.

Haha, this getting fun I guess. After reading various articles, the vast majority of people, editors, publications and public polls suggest this Hinkle guy is a first class a-hole. I guess they're all idiots though :-b
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