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I can't resist... Ted Haggard

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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:23 pm

Amazinz wrote:And let me make this clear if it wasn't clear earlier. I am in no way supporting Christians that use Leviticus as a weapon against homosexuals. It is very clear to most Christians that we are no longer governed by Leviticus. In the Old Testament god was very harsh on his people and it was not until Jesus Christ died for our sins that we were saved. And I realize that many of you believe that is hocus pocus. I am not trying to convert or convince anyone, just explaining the perspective.

My original point was to correct a misconception about the Bible that trivializes it. People who do not care for the Bible and only wish to use it as a weapon against believers make silly comments like God says homosexuality and eating shellfish are bad and are equally so. Come on. I was just trying to defend that aspect of it.


That sums it up perfectly for me, and I did not intend to belittle or show disrespect. I do understand the principle that Christians are no longer governed by the laws of Leviticus and that is explanation enough for me.
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Postby Amazinz » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:26 pm

It is cool. Sometime I allow myself to get too emotionally connected to threads that deal with this topic. If you are really interested in understanding the Christian stance than you are looking in the wrong place. Paul's letter in Romans has many more answers and is still a hotly debated subject within many churches.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:43 pm

Amazinz wrote:Generally, people who cite Leviticus for the sole purpose of denouncing gays are not real men of God. They are using the Bible as a weapon and picking and choosing to believe what fits their agenda.


I hear this sometimes. Just as I hear some Muslims saying that men of terror distort the message of the Quran.

What I don't see a lot of are Christian leaders denouncing Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell etc. for their misuse of the Bible to support their message of hate. 30 million members of the National Association of Evangelicals, millions of members in the moral majority coalition and the Christian coalition show me that these guys have a lot of support and there are not enough Christians out there saying that these are not men of God.
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Postby Amazinz » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:06 pm

I am not a born-again Christian, I am Catholic, but in my experience most born-again Christians are not filled with hate. It is just the world we live in that the these are the men that are given the most attention. As for why there is not a stronger push from within the organization to have their true message heard, I cannot say.
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Postby free » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:11 pm

acsguitar wrote:That list you posted was the exact list I'm talking about...

Unfortunately people have taken the parts of the bible they like and made them "Moral Points to stand For" and left out the parts they don't like because "They just weren't ment for this time"

Its extremely hypocritical.

Hmmm those gays make me feel uncomfortable.....well let me see leviticus 9 verse 11 written 3000 years ago tells me that its wrong!!

Hmm..I like football alot but they use pigskin....well we all know that thats just silly to not use pigskin!! I love bacon too!!...thats just outdated after all its 3000 years old.


The above rambling written and thought up by me is exactly why the Catholic Church annoys me.



The OT law system has passed away with the NT and Jesus. However, the OT is still inspired and useful for study just as the NT.

In this case though, your argument is easily crushed because not only is homosexuality condemned in Leviticus (OT) it is also condemned as sin in the NT (Romans 1:26-27 & 1 Cor. 6:9-10). Thus no hypocrisy.

It is among many things listed with sexual immorality which in one way or another we all fall short of according to Jesus' standard, but he made a way for that. There is a difference between saying something is considered sin in the Bible and hate. Hate never changes anything. Also, neither does blind acceptance.

The pigskin reference is way off. While it is true that following the OT law of nutrition your body will be considerably more healthy; Peter's vision in Acts and Paul's teachings tell us that the certain foods you eat are not whats important anymore.
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Postby Coppermine » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:13 pm

Amazinz wrote:I am not a born-again Christian, I am Catholic, but in my experience most born-again Christians are not filled with hate. It is just the world we live in that the these are the men that are given the most attention. As for why there is not a stronger push from within the organization to have their true message heard, I cannot say.


I know quite well that evangelical Christians, the vast majority in fact, are good natured people who use religion as a tool of charity rather than condemnation.

The problem is that guys Mookie mentioned, like Haggard, Robertson, Falwell are very powerful. They lead organizations that consist of literally millions of Christians and one must assume that their words are being spoken for those millions of followers. There's no sense of community in this as provided by a traditional church and the "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" philosophy is reaching hypocritical levels.

I also think that many Christians do speak out against those people who use the Bible as a weapon of hate, but are drowned out by the overexposure of super-televangelists. This also leads to the contempt of non-Christians who may think that when Pat Robertson says that Hurricane Katrina was God's wrath as a result of America's tolerance of gays, he's speaking for most, if not all, Christians. This is what should be fought, but there does not seem to many level-headed Christians in positions of power and prominence like Haggard or Robertson. Heck, I think Falwell has his own University.

I just want to make it clear that I realize that these guys are not speaking for the majority of Christians, but deserve criticism because of the immense influence they have.
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Postby Amazinz » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:18 pm

I definitely agree. As a Christian I can't stand them and as a conservative I can't stand them. There are real issues and needs of conservatives that have merit but get overshadowed because we get labeled as a group as the "party of hate".
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Postby chadlincoln » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:18 pm

I'm not really sure where to jump in all this since I haven't commented in a while, but after reading it I have a few thoughts.

Christians are never a reflection of what God truly is. Jesus lived a perfect life not to show us that it's possible, but to show how impossible it truly is to live a sinless life and how we need Him for salvation.

Christians are not perfect so none should ever judge. We shouldn't judge non-Christians by a standard they have never agreed to live by. God will do that and we Christians only do damage when we try.

In the same way that everything your senator, governor, etc say and do in your state, that does not mean that all people in your state agree with their decision or share the same views. Heck, I'd never even heard of Haggard before all this happened. He definitely doesn't speak for me nor do I base my ministry/life after him.

I'm going to use the drunk driving analogy again. If there were people out there wanting to legalize drunk driving and you were against it, that doesn't mean you hate them. Even if you ask your friends to vote against legalizing drunk driving, that doesn't mean you hate them. Legalizing gay marriage is against what Christians believe, so of course we're going to be against it and it's our right to be so. Doesn't mean we hate them. Doesn't mean we want them to die. It just means that we don't agree with that and if we have every right to speak up on that issue as they have the right to promote it.

That's pretty much all I got. I'm glad to see the level of respect in this topic. It can be hard to discuss this but I think we're doing a good job of not going after each others' throats. We can disagree and yet respect each other and that's a good thing. ;-D
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:40 pm

chadlincoln wrote:I'm going to use the drunk driving analogy again. If there were people out there wanting to legalize drunk driving and you were against it, that doesn't mean you hate them. Even if you ask your friends to vote against legalizing drunk driving, that doesn't mean you hate them. Legalizing gay marriage is against what Christians believe, so of course we're going to be against it and it's our right to be so. Doesn't mean we hate them. Doesn't mean we want them to die. It just means that we don't agree with that and if we have every right to speak up on that issue as they have the right to promote it.


Chad, drunk driving kills people and is against the law. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that this is just a very bad example because comparing homosexuality to drunk driving may be seen by some to be highly offensive.

btw - I don't believe that legalizing gay marriage is against what all Christians believe.
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Postby chadlincoln » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:42 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:I'm going to use the drunk driving analogy again. If there were people out there wanting to legalize drunk driving and you were against it, that doesn't mean you hate them. Even if you ask your friends to vote against legalizing drunk driving, that doesn't mean you hate them. Legalizing gay marriage is against what Christians believe, so of course we're going to be against it and it's our right to be so. Doesn't mean we hate them. Doesn't mean we want them to die. It just means that we don't agree with that and if we have every right to speak up on that issue as they have the right to promote it.


Chad, drunk driving kills people and is against the law. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that this is just a very bad example because comparing homosexuality to drunk driving may be seen by some to be highly offensive.

btw - I don't believe that legalizing gay marriage is against what all Christians believe.
Did you read my former posts on the drunk driving analogy? I used that analogy of drunk driving of separating the act from the person. You can disagree with the act (homosexuality, drunk driving) and not hate the person.
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