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Kenny Rogers with pine tar on hand...???

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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:47 pm

mweir145 wrote:Yikes, that's incriminating. :-o I'm still not sure it's really within their power to do something like a suspension after the fact, though (because they will never be 100% certain about what had happened).

I'm also beginning to wonder how many pitchers in this league would be seen doing basically the same thing, if a camera was on them for most of the game?


after the fact they wont do anything. they shouldnt. if something was going to be done they should have done it during the game.

i dont know how many pitchers do it but i will be suspicious any time a pitcher repeatedly touches his hat, rubs his arms, or rubs part of his jersey. those actions seem to be the main clues.

i wont act like baseball is a saintly church league, but i want it to be.
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Postby acsguitar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:51 pm

Ha that video is great you can see him going back for more pinetar and applying it to the ball.

In his defense batters can use pinetar on their bats I don't see why getting better grip on a ball is a crime especially in cold weather.

Now cutting the ball is a different story. He was just trying to get a better grip.

Still it is cheating.
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Postby wrveres » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:10 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
mweir145 wrote:What is Major League Baseball supposed to do about this? According to their umpires, the substance was "observed" as dirt, and that's all that matters now. Do you want them to use these pictures as proof of his wrong doing, and then suspend Rogers? :-?


in the future i want them to do an investigation (not an observation) when they see a pitcher do this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D2HsDilw_r4


yeah look at the count on that very first pitch in the Video, then tell me Fox wasn't all over this. It was the 2nd pitch of the game ..

The most incriminating AB is the next AB after that video.
The Pujols AB. There is tape of him actually applying it to his fingers over and over and over again in that same AB. You see the pine tar being applied to his fingers. it is quite funny.
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Postby acsguitar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:23 pm

wrveres wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
mweir145 wrote:What is Major League Baseball supposed to do about this? According to their umpires, the substance was "observed" as dirt, and that's all that matters now. Do you want them to use these pictures as proof of his wrong doing, and then suspend Rogers? :-?


in the future i want them to do an investigation (not an observation) when they see a pitcher do this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D2HsDilw_r4


yeah look at the count on that very first pitch in the Video, then tell me Fox wasn't all over this. It was the 2nd pitch of the game ..

The most incriminating AB is the next AB after that video.
The Pujols AB. There is tape of him actually applying it to his fingers over and over and over again in that same AB. You see the pine tar being applied to his fingers. it is quite funny.


man this sucks...I hate the cardinals but I feel bad rooting for Kenny Rogers.
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Postby Amazinz » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:31 pm

NY Daily News wrote:The opinion here is that the Kenny Rogers "pine tar-gate" affair, is much ado about nothing, especially in light of the eight shutout innings he tossed against the Cardinals after washing his hands in Game2. Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa handled it right in telling the umpires to straighten it out, and after being satisfied that they did, not attributing St. Louis' loss to Rogers' alleged cheating. So some baseballs were scuffed as Cards hitting coach Hal McRae charged? Did Rogers' pitches take any unusual drops and dips as if they were doctored? Even LaRussa conceded that night they did not. Still, the whole controversy (which, if nothing else, has given this World Series some needed juice) calls to mind an incident in a 1987 game between the Yankees and Angels in Anaheim featuring Tommy John and Don Sutton, both of whom had reputations for occasionally doctoring baseballs. The Yankees were leading, 1-0, when, between halves of the third inning, the WPIX cameras showed Sutton sitting in the Angel dugout taking what appeared to be sandpaper out of his pocket. A few minutes later, then-Yankee manager Lou Piniella got a phone call in the visiting dugout from George Steinbrenner.

"Dammit, Lou, everybody in the ballpark knows Sutton is cheating," Steinbrenner fumed. "The TV cameras caught him red-handed! Why the hell aren't you doing anything about it?"

Piniella replied by asking Steinbrenner what the score was.

"It's 1-0, we're winning," Steinbrenner snapped back. "What's that got to do with anything?"

"What it means, George," Piniella shot back, "is that our guy is cheating better than their guy."


:-D
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:52 pm

mcqfesijiba wrote:There's more to this story than most of us know. The facts are being distorted by the media as well. I've heard rumors ranging from former 1968 St. Louis Cardinal McCarver holding a grudge against Detroit and tipping everyone off to another crazy rumor that this being blown out of proportion to help ratings.


mccarver may not like the tigers but he's had an axe to grind with cards since they traded him away. if anyone tipped off the cards it was buck, buts thats irrelevant since tony didnt do anything about it until the whole world new about it.


The controversy surrounding the brown substance spotted on Kenny Rogers' pitching hand during the first inning Sunday night is addressed in Rule 8.02 of the Official Baseball Rules.

According to rule 8.02(a)(2), (4) and (5), the pitcher shall not:
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball; [or]
(5) deface the ball in any manner.

According to the penalties set forth in the Official Baseball Rules, "For violation of any part of Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6): (a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended automatically for 10 games."

However, at the bottom of the 'penalties' section is the following disclaimer:
Rules 8.02(a)(2) through 8.02(a)(6) Comment: If a pitcher violates either Rule 8.02(a)(2) or Rule 8.02(a)(3) and, in the judgment of the umpire, the pitcher did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball, then the umpire may, in his discretion, warn the pitcher in lieu of applying the penalty.

In this case, it would seem, the umpires felt that Rogers "did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball."

-- ESPN.com



the exception is for Rule 8.02(a)(2) and Rule 8.02(a)(3). it is NOT for Rule 8.02(a)(4), nor are there exceptions to rule 8.02(b).

8.02(a)(4) and 8.02(b) are the rules dealing with applying and possessing foreign substances. both rules state ejection is mandatory. neither rule has an exception.


Rogers has a stern warning
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Postby pokerplaya » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:18 pm

Amazinz wrote:
NY Daily News wrote:The opinion here is that the Kenny Rogers "pine tar-gate" affair, is much ado about nothing, especially in light of the eight shutout innings he tossed against the Cardinals after washing his hands in Game2. Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa handled it right in telling the umpires to straighten it out, and after being satisfied that they did, not attributing St. Louis' loss to Rogers' alleged cheating. So some baseballs were scuffed as Cards hitting coach Hal McRae charged? Did Rogers' pitches take any unusual drops and dips as if they were doctored? Even LaRussa conceded that night they did not. Still, the whole controversy (which, if nothing else, has given this World Series some needed juice) calls to mind an incident in a 1987 game between the Yankees and Angels in Anaheim featuring Tommy John and Don Sutton, both of whom had reputations for occasionally doctoring baseballs. The Yankees were leading, 1-0, when, between halves of the third inning, the WPIX cameras showed Sutton sitting in the Angel dugout taking what appeared to be sandpaper out of his pocket. A few minutes later, then-Yankee manager Lou Piniella got a phone call in the visiting dugout from George Steinbrenner.

"Dammit, Lou, everybody in the ballpark knows Sutton is cheating," Steinbrenner fumed. "The TV cameras caught him red-handed! Why the hell aren't you doing anything about it?"

Piniella replied by asking Steinbrenner what the score was.

"It's 1-0, we're winning," Steinbrenner snapped back. "What's that got to do with anything?"

"What it means, George," Piniella shot back, "is that our guy is cheating better than their guy."


:-D


That just made my day. :-D
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Postby Coppermine » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:29 pm

Bill Simmons wrote:Does anyone else believe that he planted that brown stuff on his left hand to deflect attention away from the fact that he fits every possible profile of a steroids/greenies guy? I mean, let's say you just returned from a three-week safari in Africa and I told you, "Yo, there's this veteran pitcher in his early 40s with a storied track record for choking in big games, only now he's working on a 22-inning scoreless streak in October and punctuating each start by screaming after every out and stomping around like a crazy homeless guy trying to clear out a bus stop?" Wouldn't your first thought be, "What's he taking?" Instead, we're worried about some mud on his hand? Somebody make this guy pee in a cup, please.
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Postby JTWood » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:41 pm

Coppermine wrote:
Bill Simmons wrote:Does anyone else believe that he planted that brown stuff on his left hand to deflect attention away from the fact that he fits every possible profile of a steroids/greenies guy? I mean, let's say you just returned from a three-week safari in Africa and I told you, "Yo, there's this veteran pitcher in his early 40s with a storied track record for choking in big games, only now he's working on a 22-inning scoreless streak in October and punctuating each start by screaming after every out and stomping around like a crazy homeless guy trying to clear out a bus stop?" Wouldn't your first thought be, "What's he taking?" Instead, we're worried about some mud on his hand? Somebody make this guy pee in a cup, please.

Ha! I said that in the game commentary threat that night!
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Postby ukrneal » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:53 am

Coppermine wrote:
Bill Simmons wrote:Does anyone else believe that he planted that brown stuff on his left hand to deflect attention away from the fact that he fits every possible profile of a steroids/greenies guy? I mean, let's say you just returned from a three-week safari in Africa and I told you, "Yo, there's this veteran pitcher in his early 40s with a storied track record for choking in big games, only now he's working on a 22-inning scoreless streak in October and punctuating each start by screaming after every out and stomping around like a crazy homeless guy trying to clear out a bus stop?" Wouldn't your first thought be, "What's he taking?" Instead, we're worried about some mud on his hand? Somebody make this guy pee in a cup, please.


I think you need to look at his history. Especially with cameras and cameramen...
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