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Kenny Rogers with pine tar on hand...???

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Postby RugbyD » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:00 pm

I apologize if this is a repost, but i didn't see it on a quick scan through the pages:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/w ... index.html

'It was pine tar'
Coach says pitchers often use foreign substances
Posted: Monday October 23, 2006 4:32PM; Updated: Tuesday October 24, 2006 11:09AM
SI.com's Jon Heyman talked to a bullpen coach about Kenny Rogers, foreign substances and what likely went on Sunday night in Rogers' 3-1 Game 2 World Series victory. For the record, Rogers' story is that the noticeable mark on the palm of his left hand that was picked up by Fox was a "clump of dirt," and Major League Baseball isn't pursuing the matter further. But here's what one bullpen coach said about it:

"It was pine tar. It couldn't be anything else. Pitchers use pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion. Pitchers use them to help them grip the ball and make the ball move more. Bullpen guys sometimes keep suntan lotion in the ball bags. It's not for a tan. Pine tar works the best. It's been around the longest. But lately, more and more guys are using shaving cream and suntan lotion. There's no chance to be caught with shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"I don't know Kenny Rogers, but I'm guessing he had to use pine tar because it was so cold. He probably usually uses shaving cream or suntan lotion because they blend in. A lot of guys use shaving cream or suntan lotion, or both, because there's no way you could detect them. But it was so cold in Detroit. You need moisture or sweat to make the shaving cream or suntan lotion work, so it was probably too cold to use shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Pine tar, which has been around forever, has a cakiness to it, and it works in the cold. A lot of guys use pine tar, too, but I'm guessing Rogers doesn't use it too much because he didn't know how to hide it. With suntan lotion or shaving cream, you can put it anywhere because it blends in. You see David Wells wiping his forearms after every pitch. That's either suntan lotion or shaving cream he's applying to his hand.

"Pine tar is the best, but you have to be careful with it because it's detectable. There are pine tar rags. But usually the pitchers keep the pine tar on their glove. They put it either deep in the pocket or the heel of the glove or inside the glove. Then when they take the glove off, with your index finger, middle finger or thumb, they get the pine tar.

"I am guessing Rogers didn't really know how to use pine tar, because he put too much on. It probably spread from his glove to the palm of his hand.

"You have to try to be inconspicuous about it. He probably put the pine tar on the glove but it started to leak and build up on his hand. There was nothing he could do about it. It started to cake up too much. Pine tar also makes a stain on the ball.

"Guys have to reapply pine tar every inning. They wipe it off their fingers with alcohol between innings. Then they reapply it the next inning.

"Pitchers usually hide the pine tar on their glove but also may put it on the back of their pant leg or put it on a pad in their back pocket. If they do that, they can slip their middle finger into their back pocket to apply it.

"The pine tar blends in nicely with the glove if it's the right color. I'd check which gloves he was using which inning. You just get it in your hand and rub it up. The pine tar allows the index finger and thumb to apply more pressure on the ball. With Rogers and his curveball, he needs more pressure on his thumb. It also helps the ball move a little extra. If the ball is fractionally heavier on one side, it will move more.

"But the predominant reason to use the pine tar is for the grip and to apply the necessary pressure to throw your pitches. The ball was coming out of his hand pretty good. It's good for the splitter, the cutter, the slider and the curveball.

"Rogers isn't a very hard thrower. He depends on movement. It can even help with the changeup. The hard thing about throwing a splitter is controlling it. If you apply pine tar to the middle finger and index finger, it allows you to grip it better and gain more control. But pine tar is very visible. That's why you have to be careful. A lot of times you have to wipe it off between innings with alcohol. It comes right off with alcohol.

"He definitely was using pine tar. It can cake with pine tar and rosin. Maybe after the second inning, he went back to the shaving cream and added moisture. I'd say he was either hiding it better or he went back to the shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Some guys use a combination of all three -- pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion -- or you could use one or two. They use the sports suntan lotion so they don't accidentally irritate their eyes.

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''
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Postby Big Pimpin » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:16 pm

RugbyD wrote:I apologize if this is a repost, but i didn't see it on a quick scan through the pages:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/w ... index.html

'It was pine tar'
Coach says pitchers often use foreign substances
Posted: Monday October 23, 2006 4:32PM; Updated: Tuesday October 24, 2006 11:09AM
SI.com's Jon Heyman talked to a bullpen coach about Kenny Rogers, foreign substances and what likely went on Sunday night in Rogers' 3-1 Game 2 World Series victory. For the record, Rogers' story is that the noticeable mark on the palm of his left hand that was picked up by Fox was a "clump of dirt," and Major League Baseball isn't pursuing the matter further. But here's what one bullpen coach said about it:

"It was pine tar. It couldn't be anything else. Pitchers use pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion. Pitchers use them to help them grip the ball and make the ball move more. Bullpen guys sometimes keep suntan lotion in the ball bags. It's not for a tan. Pine tar works the best. It's been around the longest. But lately, more and more guys are using shaving cream and suntan lotion. There's no chance to be caught with shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"I don't know Kenny Rogers, but I'm guessing he had to use pine tar because it was so cold. He probably usually uses shaving cream or suntan lotion because they blend in. A lot of guys use shaving cream or suntan lotion, or both, because there's no way you could detect them. But it was so cold in Detroit. You need moisture or sweat to make the shaving cream or suntan lotion work, so it was probably too cold to use shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Pine tar, which has been around forever, has a cakiness to it, and it works in the cold. A lot of guys use pine tar, too, but I'm guessing Rogers doesn't use it too much because he didn't know how to hide it. With suntan lotion or shaving cream, you can put it anywhere because it blends in. You see David Wells wiping his forearms after every pitch. That's either suntan lotion or shaving cream he's applying to his hand.

"Pine tar is the best, but you have to be careful with it because it's detectable. There are pine tar rags. But usually the pitchers keep the pine tar on their glove. They put it either deep in the pocket or the heel of the glove or inside the glove. Then when they take the glove off, with your index finger, middle finger or thumb, they get the pine tar.

"I am guessing Rogers didn't really know how to use pine tar, because he put too much on. It probably spread from his glove to the palm of his hand.

"You have to try to be inconspicuous about it. He probably put the pine tar on the glove but it started to leak and build up on his hand. There was nothing he could do about it. It started to cake up too much. Pine tar also makes a stain on the ball.

"Guys have to reapply pine tar every inning. They wipe it off their fingers with alcohol between innings. Then they reapply it the next inning.

"Pitchers usually hide the pine tar on their glove but also may put it on the back of their pant leg or put it on a pad in their back pocket. If they do that, they can slip their middle finger into their back pocket to apply it.

"The pine tar blends in nicely with the glove if it's the right color. I'd check which gloves he was using which inning. You just get it in your hand and rub it up. The pine tar allows the index finger and thumb to apply more pressure on the ball. With Rogers and his curveball, he needs more pressure on his thumb. It also helps the ball move a little extra. If the ball is fractionally heavier on one side, it will move more.

"But the predominant reason to use the pine tar is for the grip and to apply the necessary pressure to throw your pitches. The ball was coming out of his hand pretty good. It's good for the splitter, the cutter, the slider and the curveball.

"Rogers isn't a very hard thrower. He depends on movement. It can even help with the changeup. The hard thing about throwing a splitter is controlling it. If you apply pine tar to the middle finger and index finger, it allows you to grip it better and gain more control. But pine tar is very visible. That's why you have to be careful. A lot of times you have to wipe it off between innings with alcohol. It comes right off with alcohol.

"He definitely was using pine tar. It can cake with pine tar and rosin. Maybe after the second inning, he went back to the shaving cream and added moisture. I'd say he was either hiding it better or he went back to the shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Some guys use a combination of all three -- pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion -- or you could use one or two. They use the sports suntan lotion so they don't accidentally irritate their eyes.

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''


Yeah it's a repost all right. Jeez. ;-) :-b

But it's a great read. ;-D ;-D
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Postby OREO fan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:20 pm

Quit acting like MLB is a saintly church league, and Rogers is the devil bringing it down.
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Postby mcqfesijiba » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:22 pm

There's more to this story than most of us know. The facts are being distorted by the media as well. I've heard rumors ranging from former 1968 St. Louis Cardinal McCarver holding a grudge against Detroit and tipping everyone off to another crazy rumor that this being blown out of proportion to help ratings. It's ridiculous and hard to make a good judgment out of all of this. There are clearly things that we fans don't know about behind the scenes and some of what we know isn't 100% factual as the media puts spin on it. What we know is Rogers had a fair amount of substance on his hand that has been all but verified to be pine tar. The umps and LaRussa met during the inning and a warning was handed out (although there is still a lot of speculation as to what was really said). Without knowing more facts not fed to me by the media, which I greatly distrust, I am going to assume that everyone acted appropriately. I'm going to guess that pine tar is more accepted than we're led to realize, but the players are expected to be more conspicuous about it.

Also in a quote from some article on ESPN there is a sidenote that shows there is a loophole to the rule about ejecting a pitcher.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2 ... id=2635538
The controversy surrounding the brown substance spotted on Kenny Rogers' pitching hand during the first inning Sunday night is addressed in Rule 8.02 of the Official Baseball Rules.

According to rule 8.02(a)(2), (4) and (5), the pitcher shall not:
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball; [or]
(5) deface the ball in any manner.

According to the penalties set forth in the Official Baseball Rules, "For violation of any part of Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6): (a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended automatically for 10 games."

However, at the bottom of the 'penalties' section is the following disclaimer:
Rules 8.02(a)(2) through 8.02(a)(6) Comment: If a pitcher violates either Rule 8.02(a)(2) or Rule 8.02(a)(3) and, in the judgment of the umpire, the pitcher did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball, then the umpire may, in his discretion, warn the pitcher in lieu of applying the penalty.

In this case, it would seem, the umpires felt that Rogers "did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball."

-- ESPN.com

Take that for what it is. Whether the judgment they make is correct or not, it does give them the say of whether or not to eject the pitcher from the game.

People keep talking about Rogers having a great postseason despite a history of failure, but Jeff Weaver had been raped by hitters all season long and is suddenly having himself a nice little postseason too. Not accusing him, but just pointing out that players can go on hot streaks at the right times. There always is the possibility that some Cardinals also may be giving themselves better grip on the ball one way or another, as has been mentioned by others, but they haven't been caught unlike Rogers. Or at least we are not aware of any suspicions regarding the Cardinals.
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Postby Yoda » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:49 pm

RugbyD wrote:I apologize if this is a repost, but i didn't see it on a quick scan through the pages:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/w ... index.html

'It was pine tar'
Coach says pitchers often use foreign substances
Posted: Monday October 23, 2006 4:32PM; Updated: Tuesday October 24, 2006 11:09AM
SI.com's Jon Heyman talked to a bullpen coach about Kenny Rogers, foreign substances and what likely went on Sunday night in Rogers' 3-1 Game 2 World Series victory. For the record, Rogers' story is that the noticeable mark on the palm of his left hand that was picked up by Fox was a "clump of dirt," and Major League Baseball isn't pursuing the matter further. But here's what one bullpen coach said about it:

"It was pine tar. It couldn't be anything else. Pitchers use pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion. Pitchers use them to help them grip the ball and make the ball move more. Bullpen guys sometimes keep suntan lotion in the ball bags. It's not for a tan. Pine tar works the best. It's been around the longest. But lately, more and more guys are using shaving cream and suntan lotion. There's no chance to be caught with shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"I don't know Kenny Rogers, but I'm guessing he had to use pine tar because it was so cold. He probably usually uses shaving cream or suntan lotion because they blend in. A lot of guys use shaving cream or suntan lotion, or both, because there's no way you could detect them. But it was so cold in Detroit. You need moisture or sweat to make the shaving cream or suntan lotion work, so it was probably too cold to use shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Pine tar, which has been around forever, has a cakiness to it, and it works in the cold. A lot of guys use pine tar, too, but I'm guessing Rogers doesn't use it too much because he didn't know how to hide it. With suntan lotion or shaving cream, you can put it anywhere because it blends in. You see David Wells wiping his forearms after every pitch. That's either suntan lotion or shaving cream he's applying to his hand.

"Pine tar is the best, but you have to be careful with it because it's detectable. There are pine tar rags. But usually the pitchers keep the pine tar on their glove. They put it either deep in the pocket or the heel of the glove or inside the glove. Then when they take the glove off, with your index finger, middle finger or thumb, they get the pine tar.

"I am guessing Rogers didn't really know how to use pine tar, because he put too much on. It probably spread from his glove to the palm of his hand.

"You have to try to be inconspicuous about it. He probably put the pine tar on the glove but it started to leak and build up on his hand. There was nothing he could do about it. It started to cake up too much. Pine tar also makes a stain on the ball.

"Guys have to reapply pine tar every inning. They wipe it off their fingers with alcohol between innings. Then they reapply it the next inning.

"Pitchers usually hide the pine tar on their glove but also may put it on the back of their pant leg or put it on a pad in their back pocket. If they do that, they can slip their middle finger into their back pocket to apply it.

"The pine tar blends in nicely with the glove if it's the right color. I'd check which gloves he was using which inning. You just get it in your hand and rub it up. The pine tar allows the index finger and thumb to apply more pressure on the ball. With Rogers and his curveball, he needs more pressure on his thumb. It also helps the ball move a little extra. If the ball is fractionally heavier on one side, it will move more.

"But the predominant reason to use the pine tar is for the grip and to apply the necessary pressure to throw your pitches. The ball was coming out of his hand pretty good. It's good for the splitter, the cutter, the slider and the curveball.

"Rogers isn't a very hard thrower. He depends on movement. It can even help with the changeup. The hard thing about throwing a splitter is controlling it. If you apply pine tar to the middle finger and index finger, it allows you to grip it better and gain more control. But pine tar is very visible. That's why you have to be careful. A lot of times you have to wipe it off between innings with alcohol. It comes right off with alcohol.

"He definitely was using pine tar. It can cake with pine tar and rosin. Maybe after the second inning, he went back to the shaving cream and added moisture. I'd say he was either hiding it better or he went back to the shaving cream or suntan lotion.

"Some guys use a combination of all three -- pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion -- or you could use one or two. They use the sports suntan lotion so they don't accidentally irritate their eyes.

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''


This coach sounds like a 10 yo...
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Postby bravo369 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:02 pm

Now I did not see the game so for those who did, did the umpire just yell from behind home plate for rogers to clean his hand? or did he actually walk out there, stand next to him and observe his hand. If he walked out there then this is a nonissue to me. He wiped it off and then pitched a great game. he's have to either be really good or really lucky to continue cheating in front of 50,000 fans and millions on tv and no one with direct PROOF that he cheated. and that's my stance
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:28 pm

bravo369 wrote:Now I did not see the game so for those who did, did the umpire just yell from behind home plate for rogers to clean his hand? or did he actually walk out there, stand next to him and observe his hand. If he walked out there then this is a nonissue to me. He wiped it off and then pitched a great game. he's have to either be really good or really lucky to continue cheating in front of 50,000 fans and millions on tv and no one with direct PROOF that he cheated. and that's my stance


the umps did not inspect or investigate his hand. they said they observed a dirt like spot and asked him to wash. this happened between innings and not while he was on the mound. they did not inspect his hand after he allegedly washed it.

if you have any doubt read the whole thread. i think its spelled out pretty clear and documented with enough picture and video.
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:37 pm

TRL doesn't want to start an arms race he'll lose.

I just read MLB has pulled footage from other Kenny Rodgers starts (reg season) and found the same sport on his hand. Doesn't matter though, they pretty much all cheat.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:38 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
mweir145 wrote:What is Major League Baseball supposed to do about this? According to their umpires, the substance was "observed" as dirt, and that's all that matters now. Do you want them to use these pictures as proof of his wrong doing, and then suspend Rogers? :-?


in the future i want them to do an investigation (not an observation) when they see a pitcher do this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D2HsDilw_r4

Yikes, that's incriminating. :-o I'm still not sure it's really within their power to do something like a suspension after the fact, though (because they will never be 100% certain about what had happened).

I'm also beginning to wonder how many pitchers in this league would be seen doing basically the same thing, if a camera was on them for most of the game?
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:40 pm

OREO fan wrote:Quit acting like MLB is a saintly church league, and Rogers is the devil bringing it down.

You're right, Hootie's statement can easily be applied here.
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