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Kenny Rogers with pine tar on hand...???

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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:51 am

wrveres wrote:Kenny got busted, that's all, And it just happened to be in front of the whole world, during baseballs most important competition. Thats all. :-)
All those commentators from <insert ex city here> that said Kenny was not a very smart man, were correct.

It is kinda funny.

Busted? I wouldn't say so. He got to pitch the rest of the game, and there were no repercussions for what he did because the umpires didn't do anything about it. He'll likely pitch again when it comes back to a game 6. If Kenny Rogers ends up winning the World Series for the Tigers on the strength of his game 2 performance, I really doubt he's going to care about any of this. And you call him not a very smart man? Well he got away with it and gave himself a great shot at winning a championship, didn't he? So how dumb could he really be? Nobody even noticed a thing during this year's playoffs (though maybe Fox did...which might explain why they were so quick to talk about the substance on his hand in the 2nd inning), and even when they did yesterday, nobody even stopped him. Any way you look at this situation, Kenny is still going to end up ahead, which is really not the way it should be.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:54 am

wrveres wrote:
JTWood wrote:
wrveres wrote:
JTWood wrote: and if it turned out our staff was cheating, too, I'd be even more pissed off.

Your joking right?
you should enter one of these ;-7 so people don't take your post seriouslly. ;-7

Why shouldn't I be pissed if it turned out that Jeff Weaver's sudden turnaround was due to him cheating?


I would guess that there is at least two to three people on every staff that cheat in this form, one way or another.
The problem here is that it happened on a massive stage.
It opened Pandoras Box.
Every home in America has an 8x10 glossy of Kenny Rogers with pinetar on his fingers. And if you don't, I'll send ya one. :-)

If baseball plans on truly cracking down on this form of cheating, they have a perfect opportunity to do so now, while they have the publics attention. I am guessing they will do nothing and hope it goes away, I just don't see it happening ..

IMO the pressure is squarely on Kenny Rogers, and all the Tigers now. If he goes out and gets shelled in game 6, not only will this whole series will be tainted, but all the good will that the Tigers have built this year, is gone.

Tony has admitted to seeing it on Kennys hands during the Oakland and Yankee series. He spotted it while viewing game tape. It is only a matter of hours now, till those pictures surface. This is only going to get bigger

If Kenny gets shelled, this series is tainted.

How would they ever crackdown on something like this? Check every pitcher that goes out there during every start, or every relief appearance? Because that's basically what you would have to do.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:55 am

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:What do you think the chances are that he didn't want a can of worms opened up about McGwire or Canseco or didn't feel like addressing the Taveres situation again?? I basically mean in the sense that he brushed those situations away.


i really doubt it had anything to do with those guys. tony wouldnt risk the world series just to dodge a question about big mac or julian. imo there are only two possibilities:

1) tony actually believes what he said regarding the proper way to play the game, or
2) he is protecting players currently on the roster.

My guess is that it was the latter.
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:02 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:MLB does nothing....which isn't the shocking part, because nobody really expects MLB to grow a set.

What is Major League Baseball supposed to do about this? According to their umpires, the substance was "observed" as dirt, and that's all that matters now. Do you want them to use these pictures as proof of his wrong doing, and then suspend Rogers? :-?
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Postby mweir145 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:08 am

ukrneal wrote:Article from the New York Times (very interesting):

ST. LOUIS, Oct. 23 — Gaylord Perry, that master of doctoring a baseball who was just as much a master of making batters think he was doctoring it, has no doubt about what Kenny Rogers smeared across the palm of his left hand in the World Series.

Gaylord Perry, an admitted spitballer, says he knows what was on Kenny Rogers’s hand.
Perry laughed at Rogers’s explanation that it was dirt.

Perry, the man who was defined by the spitball, and by all of the histrionics that accompanied throwing it or not throwing it, watched Rogers pitching for the Detroit Tigers on Sunday. Perry said he immediately detected that the brown smudge on Rogers’s hand was from a well-known sticky substance.

“Oh, well, he probably just used a little pine tar,” said Perry, sounding like a convivial, convincing Southern lawyer. “There’s nothing wrong with that.”

Then Perry, who lives in North Carolina, said Rogers could have kept his hand from getting discolored and kept his secret had he selected a different brand.

“If he got some North Carolina pine tar, that’s clear,” Perry said in a telephone interview. “You’ve got to know what you’re doing.”

For 22 entertaining years, Perry applied spit, Vaseline, baby oil, hair tonic and several other wet substances to the surface of the ball to help make it move more. Perry would adjust his cap, tug at his sleeves and rub his face and neck before unleashing a pitch, forcing hitters to think he was loading the ball with a foreign substance every time.

Since Perry vigorously stumps for pitchers who are seeking advantages, he was giddy about what he felt Rogers had done in taming the St. Louis Cardinals, 3-1, in Game 2. Perry said that pitchers use pine tar in chilly weather because the ball is slick and the stickiness allows them to have better control. The wind chill in Detroit was 30 degrees at game time.

But Perry said he never used pine tar to deface a ball; he preferred rosin, which is legal, to get a better grip. Perry, a Hall of Fame pitcher who won 314 games, does not blame Rogers for saying the substance on his hand was dirt. But neither does Perry believe Rogers.

“If it was dirt, something had to make it stick there,” Perry said. “Dirt isn’t just sticking there in cold weather.”

Television close-ups indicated that Rogers had something on his hand in the first inning, but he washed it off before the second and pitched seven more scoreless innings. Rogers reiterated on Monday that it was not pine tar. “It was mud, rosin, sweat and spit,” Rogers said. “It’s always there.”

As Rogers was surrounded by about 75 reporters, Todd Jones, Detroit’s closer, stood 50 feet away and said that he has used pine tar on balls during his career. Jones, who writes a column for The Sporting News, wrote in 2005 that he used it every time he pitched for the Colorado Rockies at Coors Field. Jones said the substance helped him grip the ball in the 5,000-foot elevation in Denver.

“My situation was, when I was in Denver, I had to have it or I wasn’t going to be worth anything,” Jones said. “In 2003, I had an 8 E.R.A. It didn’t help. It’s not an advantage. You’re just trying to break even.”

Jones said he stored the pine tar in his glove or on his hand or in other undisclosed places. Pitchers who are caught using pine tar on balls are ejected and suspended for 10 games.

“This is not brand new, guys,” Jones said. “It’s an accepted thing. I think there’s a difference between pine tar and Vaseline.”

Perry said that Rogers, by using pine tar, was not cheating and was “taking advantage” of a situation. Even though Rogers briefly had something on his hand, Perry said what might be even more relevant is what he planted in the hitters’ heads.

“He did his thing,” Perry said. “He got all the Cardinals thinking he was doing something with the ball. That’s half the game right there.”

As Perry watched Rogers on television, he felt a kinship with the pitcher who has morphed into an October force by throwing 23 scoreless innings in a row.

“I’m proud of him, man,” Perry said. “He did it to them. Good for him. Now you’ll have a thousand high school kids using pine tar, too.”

Perry joked that if the Cardinals wanted to know what was on Rogers’s hand, a hitter should have “just walked out and shook his hand to see if it was sticky.” Perry said the best strategy for the hitters would have been to move up as much as possible in the batter’s box and hit Rogers’s pitches before they broke.

When Rogers was asked about Perry, he called him a “great pitcher,” but he did not address the slippery method that helped make Perry memorable. Meanwhile, Perry reveled in discussing Rogers. Perry noted that he has white pine trees on his property and offered to send Rogers some of that North Carolina pine tar.

“This will probably stay with him,” Perry said. “It’s like the spitball has been for me. It’s stayed with me for the rest of my life.”

Articles like this make you think that there are a ton of pitchers doing this right now. Todd Jones and Perry really make it seem like it's not a big deal and that a majority of pitchers have doctored the ball one way or another throughout their major league careers.

I'll admit that I hadn't thought of the "mind game" that is part of doing something like this, as Perry pointed out in there. Just making the opposing batters think you're doing something to the ball could be enough to throw them off.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:40 am

DK wrote:
jbauer2485 wrote:
ayebatter wrote:the 'spitter'
doctored baselines
trapped balls in the outfield
stealing signs
phantom double plays
thats baseball

tough s--t ;-D


No, Rogers was caught with a foreign substance on his hand and should have been expelled from the game per the rulebook. If you get caught, you suffer the consequences, if you don't, game on. ;-D


Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...


DK, true. There is no crying in bb. Rogers schooled the Yanks and Cards. Let the 1st player or mgr who NEVER cheated in a MLB game cast the 1st stone. As Don Henley and the Eagles would say,
get over it. Rogers won, and now there is crying. Do something at the time, or shut up.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:33 am

mweir145 wrote:What is Major League Baseball supposed to do about this? According to their umpires, the substance was "observed" as dirt, and that's all that matters now. Do you want them to use these pictures as proof of his wrong doing, and then suspend Rogers? :-?


in the future i want them to do an investigation (not an observation) when they see a pitcher do this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D2HsDilw_r4
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Postby dannahann » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:09 am

JTWood wrote:
wrveres wrote:
JTWood wrote: and if it turned out our staff was cheating, too, I'd be even more pissed off.

Your joking right?
you should enter one of these ;-7 so people don't take your post seriouslly. ;-7

Why shouldn't I be pissed if it turned out that Jeff Weaver's sudden turnaround was due to him cheating?

Are you serious? You didn't think Weaver might use before THIS incident? cmon 8-o Reyes had the look the night before too, did you TIVO some of those pitches? BTW Mussina looks to be a big user too. Some Mets fans might wonder about suppan too. It's really very common. Are there any other pitchers in here? Rogers is an idiot that he didn't hide it better and if it was pine tar could've (should've?) paid the price. IMO the primary reason La Russa opted not to confront is that his guys play the same game and he likes his chances better in a 'dirty' race. DET clearly has more raw clean pitching ability if both benches forced the umps to over scrutinize things. Get off Tony's back, IMO he's doing his best to win this thing by not forcing THIS issue. Tony has shown to forcew issues to his advantage when it benifits his squad. This woulda been no difft.
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Cmon Bud, NOW is the time to sack up and force feed an Olympic style drug program down Fehr's fat throat. Save OUR game from these blatant cheaters!
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Postby JTWood » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:27 am

dannahann wrote:
JTWood wrote:
wrveres wrote:
JTWood wrote: and if it turned out our staff was cheating, too, I'd be even more pissed off.

Your joking right?
you should enter one of these ;-7 so people don't take your post seriouslly. ;-7

Why shouldn't I be pissed if it turned out that Jeff Weaver's sudden turnaround was due to him cheating?

Are you serious?

Are you serious? I say that people shouldn't be allowed to break the rules, and you ask me if I'm serious.

This coming from a guy with a sig saying that Olympic-style drug testing should be implemented in baseball so that we can stop these "blatant" cheaters. Geez...
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Postby bigken117 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:06 am

wrveres wrote:Every home in America has an 8x10 glossy of Kenny Rogers with pinetar on his fingers. And if you don't, I'll send ya one. :-)


I don't have one. PM me and I'll send you my home address. Thanks ;-D
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