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Is this deal vetoable?

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Re: Is this deal vetoable?

Postby fraquar » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:12 am

PlayingWithFire wrote:I really thought one side gave up a lot of youth for basically Ortiz and a no name prospect(the draft pick will probably be some no name 2006 3rd round draftee). But the league is trying to veto it. What do you guys think?


I don't ordinarily even consider vetoing trades but this is one that I might consider. IMO all the guy giving up Ortiz is getting is Ethier - and the prospects he's actually gettting are nowhere near the caliber of a Delmon Young, Alex Gordon, Troy Tulowitzki - something that could help in in the near term.

This is what he's getting IMO:
a) Volquez - A Rangers pitching prospect (no matter how good he may be he still is likely to get ROCKED at Ameriquest).
b) Duncan - A Yankees postion pospect (it's a crap shoot if ANY Yankee position prospect ever make it to the Big League club - and certainly the odds are stacked against any prospect making it in Yankeeland at the premium offensive position of 1B/DH).
c) Ethier is serviceable
d) Duchscherer really depends on format like UFB said (he could be good or vitually useless - if it's a no holds league he's useless with the youngster Street there for at least 3-4 more years until he's FA eligible. Owners shouldn't put value on a guy who "could" be valuable "if and only if" another guy gets hurt to give him the opportunity.
e) Church is a career 28 year old backup with virtually no fantasy value whatsoever.

The salary dumps may be needed but really IMO he gets virtually nothing to help his ballclub - which should be the basis of any trade - to get better. As it is, the prospect he is giving up probably stands as good a chance of making a significant fantasy impact (Maloney) in Philadelphia as Volquez will in Texas in the next 2-3 years (i.e those two cancel each other out). Both Phily and Texas are starved for pitching and both are hitters ballparks.

If I was trying to rebuild that club I would insist on at least TWO premium prospects - and here's the key - that are LIKELY to make an impact and are unlikely to be blocked (regardless of ETA). Duncan and Volquez aren't it. I'd insist either on guys who could make an immediate fantasy impact in the next 2 years (guys like Gordon, Tulowitzki and Adam Miller) or at least guys who will more than likely in the next 3 who probably won't be blocked (guys like Maybin, Fowler, Brignac, Gallardo, Inman, etc).

Like I said - I seldom if ever veto a trade - but if this trade was offered by the guy trying to get Ortiz - as another league owner who was looking for balance leaguewide I'd definitely PM the owner of the guy giving him up and at least discuss what he is really getting in return. If he so chooses to make that trade so be it.
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Re: Is this deal vetoable?

Postby fraquar » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:12 am

PlayingWithFire wrote:I really thought one side gave up a lot of youth for basically Ortiz and a no name prospect(the draft pick will probably be some no name 2006 3rd round draftee). But the league is trying to veto it. What do you guys think?


I don't ordinarily even consider vetoing trades but this is one that I might consider. IMO all the guy giving up Ortiz is getting is Ethier - and the prospects he's actually gettting are nowhere near the caliber of a Delmon Young, Alex Gordon, Troy Tulowitzki - something that could help in in the near term.

This is what he's getting IMO:
a) Volquez - A Rangers pitching prospect (no matter how good he may be he still is likely to get ROCKED at Ameriquest).
b) Duncan - A Yankees postion pospect (it's a crap shoot if ANY Yankee position prospect ever make it to the Big League club - and certainly the odds are stacked against any prospect making it in Yankeeland at the premium offensive position of 1B/DH).
c) Ethier is serviceable
d) Duchscherer really depends on format like UFB said (he could be good or vitually useless - if it's a no holds league he's useless with the youngster Street there for at least 3-4 more years until he's FA eligible. Owners shouldn't put value on a guy who "could" be valuable "if and only if" another guy gets hurt to give him the opportunity.
e) Church is a career 28 year old backup with virtually no fantasy value whatsoever.

The salary dumps may be needed but really IMO he gets virtually nothing to help his ballclub - which should be the basis of any trade - to get better. As it is, the prospect he is giving up probably stands as good a chance of making a significant fantasy impact (Maloney) in Philadelphia as Volquez will in Texas in the next 2-3 years (i.e those two cancel each other out). Both Phily and Texas are starved for pitching and both are hitters ballparks.

If I was trying to rebuild that club I would insist on at least TWO premium prospects - and here's the key - that are LIKELY to make an impact and are unlikely to be blocked (regardless of ETA). Duncan and Volquez aren't it. I'd insist either on guys who could make an immediate fantasy impact in the next 2 years (guys like Gordon, Tulowitzki and Adam Miller) or at least guys who will more than likely in the next 3 who probably won't be blocked (guys like Maybin, Fowler, Brignac, Gallardo, Inman, etc).

Like I said - I seldom if ever veto a trade - but if this trade was offered by the guy trying to get Ortiz - as another league owner who was looking for balance leaguewide I'd definitely PM the owner of the guy giving him up and at least discuss what he is really getting in return. If he so chooses to make that trade so be it.
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Re: Is this deal vetoable?

Postby fraquar » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:12 am

PlayingWithFire wrote:I really thought one side gave up a lot of youth for basically Ortiz and a no name prospect(the draft pick will probably be some no name 2006 3rd round draftee). But the league is trying to veto it. What do you guys think?


I don't ordinarily even consider vetoing trades but this is one that I might consider. IMO all the guy giving up Ortiz is getting is Ethier - and the prospects he's actually gettting are nowhere near the caliber of a Delmon Young, Alex Gordon, Troy Tulowitzki - something that could help in in the near term.

This is what he's getting IMO:
a) Volquez - A Rangers pitching prospect (no matter how good he may be he still is likely to get ROCKED at Ameriquest).
b) Duncan - A Yankees postion pospect (it's a crap shoot if ANY Yankee position prospect ever make it to the Big League club - and certainly the odds are stacked against any prospect making it in Yankeeland at the premium offensive position of 1B/DH).
c) Ethier is serviceable
d) Duchscherer really depends on format like UFB said (he could be good or vitually useless - if it's a no holds league he's useless with the youngster Street there for at least 3-4 more years until he's FA eligible. Owners shouldn't put value on a guy who "could" be valuable "if and only if" another guy gets hurt to give him the opportunity.
e) Church is a career 28 year old backup with virtually no fantasy value whatsoever.

The salary dumps may be needed but really IMO he gets virtually nothing to help his ballclub - which should be the basis of any trade - to get better. As it is, the prospect he is giving up probably stands as good a chance of making a significant fantasy impact (Maloney) in Philadelphia as Volquez will in Texas in the next 2-3 years (i.e those two cancel each other out). Both Phily and Texas are starved for pitching and both are hitters ballparks.

If I was trying to rebuild that club I would insist on at least TWO premium prospects - and here's the key - that are LIKELY to make an impact and are unlikely to be blocked (regardless of ETA). Duncan and Volquez aren't it. I'd insist either on guys who could make an immediate fantasy impact in the next 2 years (guys like Gordon, Tulowitzki and Adam Miller) or at least guys who will more than likely in the next 3 who probably won't be blocked (guys like Maybin, Fowler, Brignac, Gallardo, Inman, etc).

Like I said - I seldom if ever veto a trade - but if this trade was offered by the guy trying to get Ortiz - as another league owner who was looking for balance leaguewide I'd definitely PM the owner of the guy giving him up and at least discuss what he is really getting in return. If he so chooses to make that trade so be it.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:54 am

The trade has since been passed. But I'll respond to your post since you were so thoughtful with your post.

first, yes, our league counts holds. So Duch does have quite a bit of value. 2nd, our league is huge(28 teams) that's why rather marginal players(Church) has values. What I need to say here is that both me(I'm getting Ortiz) and the other guy really values Church's power potential. I tried numerous time to get Church back(and offered packages including good prospects like Elbert, Talbot...) but he just won't let him go. Ethier was traded for John Patterson, so here is your frontline starter.

What else do I need to address? If you want a great prospect from me, well, you'll be disappointed to know my best prospect is Lincecum, and I've said things like: "If he's going to fail, it's going to be with me.". So he isn't likely to be traded.

And one more thing, I'm very surprised to find Dexter(I'm assuming here, but it could be another Fowler) Fowler in the list next to Maybin and Brignac. I have the guy. I know he's got tools, but he doesn't hit for huge power and is still in low-A I think. And his stats last year was just good, but nothing too inspiring. Why do you like him so much? Chris Nelson certainly has more tools.
Are you interested in joining a 28 teams dynasty league? If so, PM me.
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