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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:00 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:Sure, as long as those endeavors are completely private----not a single dime of public funds for it. But, they're not. And, even if they are, I don't object to their right to do it. I do think intelligent people ought to realize the real impact it has and not support it just because it's legal. Not everything that is legal is right, or fair, or moral, or just.


Well count me in the crowd that is thankful we have a Supreme Court and not people who think like this. "Right", "Fair" and "Moral" are all subjective standards. What is "right", "fair" and "moral" to one person may not be to another - which is why we have laws.

Fortunately, some people think that in a country based on freedom, I am free get together with a group of my friends and can choose who we want to hang out with and who we don't want to hang out with. And as long as our activities are legal and the government isn't involved, I'm glad the Supreme Court has stated that I can form this group and that we aren't forced to include others we don't want just because someone else doesn't think it is "fair".
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Postby mak1277 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:28 am

Big Pimpin wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'd love to hear your opinion after your daughter gets denied the opportunity to do something important to her because she doesn't have the right equipment.


Listen, if a group of guys decides they want to have a private club and don't want women in, I'm all for that.

If a group of women want a private club to work out at (which there are a number of), I'm all for that.

The desire to keep women out of a private club is no less of a "right" than the desire for women to get in.


Sure, as long as those endeavors are completely private----not a single dime of public funds for it. But, they're not. And, even if they are, I don't object to their right to do it. I do think intelligent people ought to realize the real impact it has and not support it just because it's legal. Not everything that is legal is right, or fair, or moral, or just.

I could have written those same three sentences you did ten years ago. Then, I had a daughter. You'll be amazed at how different things look when you see if through someone else's eyes.


I haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I found this interesting. I have two daughters, and don't see a problem with a club that wants to be "men only." In fact my wife was glad as well when Augusta National told Martha Burke to get bent. I guess I just don't see the problem there.


Yes, my wife was also on the side of the club in this debate, not the radical feminist. I don't have a daughter, but if/when I do, I will tell her that conceptually she has the right to do anything she wants, but in reality that's not gonna happen. Life isn't fair and if you can't learn to deal with that at some point, you're going to be really freakin' unhappy.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:06 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:I haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I found this interesting. I have two daughters, and don't see a problem with a club that wants to be "men only." In fact my wife was glad as well when Augusta National told Martha Burke to get bent. I guess I just don't see the problem there.



There are several problems, but one of the most important ones is what really happens at such clubs. They are very often places where significant business decisions are discussed, debated, negotiated, etc. Shutting women, blacks, etc. off from the opportunity to participate in that effectively helps explain part of the reason why individuals in these groups have difficulty getting past the glass ceiling. There's a reason why "old boys' club" is a phrase.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:30 pm

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:You obviously don't undertsand the concept of a double standard. When one group can make disparaging remarks about another group, and the reverse is not true, that is a double standard. A double standard exists within a specific class, such as race, when whites get fired for saying negative things about blacks but the reverse is not true. A double standard exists if a heterosexual (regardless of race) says derogatory things about homossexuals (regardless of race) and gets punished and not vice versa.


You obviously don't understand the point I made. I said quite clearly that a double standard exists. But, it's not the one you and others claim. The double standard is that people with power and leverage--whether they are black, white, Asian, homosexual, or heterosexual---can say these things and not pay nearly as high aprice as those without power. Black power without power who make insensitive comments about whites, Asians, homosexuals, etc. lose their job, just like white power without power.

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:And, BTW, Reggie White (a heterosexual) did not make comments about whites - his were about gays - another minority group. But nice try, though. The examples I gave were of negative comments about race that went unpunished. Again - double standard.


Actually, White made comments about race and homosexuality:

"White said he has thought about why God created different races. Each race has certain gifts, he said.

Blacks are gifted at worship and celebration, White said.

"If you go to a black church, you see people jumping up and down because they really get into it," he said.

Whites are good at organization, White said.

"You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature, and you know how to tap into money," he said.

"Hispanics were gifted in family structure, and you can see a Hispanic person, and they can put 20, 30 people in one home."

The Japanese and other Asians are inventive, and "can turn a television into a watch," White said. Indians are gifted in spirituality, he said. "

If you really want to pretend that there's a difference between racial stereotyping and ethnic, gender, sexuality, etc. sterotyping, be my guest. It's all the same, and it goes unpunished when the speaker has power.


Dawgpound 1613 wrote:And naming radio DJs. Wow. Is that all you can find? Answer, yes. But I admit my statement was too broad and I was discussing just the sports world. But great, you found two outside the sports world - and neither of which involved insensitive comments about whites, but I guess you have to scrape the barrel when trying to prove a point. I guess I should not say "no examples" and just state "very few examples". However, if we're going to leave the sports world, do you want me to go find the names of the much higher number of individuals regardless of profession? My original proposition stands.


Not sure why radio DJs get dissed and sports announcers are held in such high regard. I'd say that's a nice double standard.

And how many cases of minority groups making insensitive comments about whites have you offered? Several of the ones you have offered--like Guillen--are not even about whites.
It just doesn't happen all that often, because there are so few who get the opportunity.




Dawgpound 1613 wrote:And, if you think it has to do with position or power, you're kidding yourself. Barkley/Gumble and Lyons/Jimmy the Greek/Limbaugh are/were sports broadcasters. None had more/less power than the other, yet the latter group was fired and the former group was not. The same goes for Baker/Guillen vs. Campanis (and some would argue the latter has more power as GM, but also more "responsibility") and, again, the latter was fired while the former were not. Again, it is not the person's position. If so, had the colors been reveresed and Costas (much more "power" than Gumble) made a negative statement about blacks, you think he'd still have his job?


You clearly have no clue what power is. Gumbel is one of the most powerful announcers in media. Lyons and the Greek were NOTHING. Limbaugh has a ton of power in radio, but in his MNF gig he was the ultimate replaceable part. Dump Rush, bring in Miller. Dump Miller, bring in Tony. He had no power in that situation.

Guillen was a hugely popular manager coming off a championship. Are you really arguing that things would not have played out differently if he was an unpopular manager on a team that had a few years of consecutive losing records?

Power ain't position.

And yes, if Costas made a remark, he'd be apologizing, but he'd keep his job.

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:
Lastly, a "double standard" does not require that one side always get punished while the other does not, just that different standards exist. Hence, the fact that Paterno (whose comments were about rape and offensive to NOW, not race) and Fisher DeBarry and Paul Hornung can make negative comments and "get away with it" does not change the fact that there was a lot more made of their comments than had a black coach or athlete made the same comments about white football players.


And, again, there's no difference between the different types of sterotyping, except the difference you want to try to imagine.

There is a double standard. You just aren't looking in the right place.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:34 pm

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:Well count me in the crowd that is thankful we have a Supreme Court and not people who think like this. "Right", "Fair" and "Moral" are all subjective standards. What is "right", "fair" and "moral" to one person may not be to another - which is why we have laws.

Fortunately, some people think that in a country based on freedom, I am free get together with a group of my friends and can choose who we want to hang out with and who we don't want to hang out with. And as long as our activities are legal and the government isn't involved, I'm glad the Supreme Court has stated that I can form this group and that we aren't forced to include others we don't want just because someone else doesn't think it is "fair".


And, as I said, I think people have a perfect legal right to do so, just as I have a perfect legal right to point out the negative impact such things can have and try to convince people that when they use their freedom to try to exclude and discriminate against others, they are standing on shaky moral ground.

You seem to have a real problem distinguishing between these things.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:45 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:I haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I found this interesting. I have two daughters, and don't see a problem with a club that wants to be "men only." In fact my wife was glad as well when Augusta National told Martha Burke to get bent. I guess I just don't see the problem there.



There are several problems, but one of the most important ones is what really happens at such clubs. They are very often places where significant business decisions are discussed, debated, negotiated, etc. Shutting women, blacks, etc. off from the opportunity to participate in that effectively helps explain part of the reason why individuals in these groups have difficulty getting past the glass ceiling. There's a reason why "old boys' club" is a phrase.


Well sure. And if I remember correctly, women and blacks and such can in fact play golf at Augusta (with a member of course). But they just don't allow women to join the club.
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Postby mak1277 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:56 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:I haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I found this interesting. I have two daughters, and don't see a problem with a club that wants to be "men only." In fact my wife was glad as well when Augusta National told Martha Burke to get bent. I guess I just don't see the problem there.



There are several problems, but one of the most important ones is what really happens at such clubs. They are very often places where significant business decisions are discussed, debated, negotiated, etc. Shutting women, blacks, etc. off from the opportunity to participate in that effectively helps explain part of the reason why individuals in these groups have difficulty getting past the glass ceiling. There's a reason why "old boys' club" is a phrase.


Tough F'ing luck...that's my response to that commentary. You continue to remind me how much I dislike bleeding heart liberal dogma.
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Postby davidmarver » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:07 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
davidmarver wrote:But those are completely, completely ridiculous things to say. Piniella had found a wallet the Friday before the game...saying "my wallet is missing" isn't out of left-field in that instance.

In order for Lyons saying "spechening sie deutsch" and then talking about "killing jews" to be the same as what he said, Piniella would have to have killed a jew -- or something revolving around that -- the previous Friday. That is why it doesn't matter, in a racial context, about the pre-existing stereotype when Lyons said what he said.


Now, you are missing my point. You've objected that it is Fox guilty of being racist, not Lyons. But, that's simply nonsensical. The stereotypes exist. And if you use them in a position like the one Lyons had, you can expect to get canned.

Of course, if Lyons had used one of the other languages and linked it to "missing wallets" he may not have been canned. BEACAUSE THERE"S NO STEREOTYPE INVOLVED.

And that's my point. Link the language with the appropriate pejorative stereotype and it's clear that if Lyons or anyone else who used those, they would have been fired.

The ones I chose were deliberately a little ridiculous to make the point. The pre-existing stereotype certainly does matter.

No, the pre-existing stereotype only matters because you've made it matter. The fact that the race of the person this is spoken about makes it racism -- you yourself said that saying "parlering le francais" and then "missing your wallet" isn't racism -- is racism itself. You've let the race of the person it's spoken to be the determining factor and that, itself, is racism.

And about Augusta National...important decisions occur in women's restrooms all the time and you don't vouch for same-sex bathrooms. And, for the overwhelming majority of the time, the members aren't hanging out making decisions. I'd venture to guess than 99% of the time the members are golfing, talking about golfing, or talking about other random things, not making these important, earth shattering decisions that clearly further's their sexist agenda. ;-7

Get real. The race and gender cards are over-played so much it's nauseating. :-°
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:42 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:Well sure. And if I remember correctly, women and blacks and such can in fact play golf at Augusta (with a member of course). But they just don't allow women to join the club.


Oh, that's all right, then.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:51 pm

davidmarver wrote:No, the pre-existing stereotype only matters because you've made it matter. The fact that the race of the person this is spoken about makes it racism -- you yourself said that saying "parlering le francais" and then "missing your wallet" isn't racism -- is racism itself. You've let the race of the person it's spoken to be the determining factor and that, itself, is racism.

And about Augusta National...important decisions occur in women's restrooms all the time and you don't vouch for same-sex bathrooms. And, for the overwhelming majority of the time, the members aren't hanging out making decisions. I'd venture to guess than 99% of the time the members are golfing, talking about golfing, or talking about other random things, not making these important, earth shattering decisions that clearly further's their sexist agenda. ;-7

Get real. The race and gender cards are over-played so much it's nauseating. :-°


No, the pre-existing stereotype matters because it exists. If Lyons linked francais with missing wallets most of us would still be wondering what the hell he meant, because there is simply no stereotype. He might still have earned the canning, but it would simply not be as clear-cut a case because of the lack of a pre-existing stereotype. French, fwiw, isn't a race or ethnicity any way, so such a statement wouldn't be racist, but it might be xenophobic, in a really odd sort of way.

I'm all for unisex bathrooms. Aren't you?

And it's pretty damn clear you don't spent a hell of a lot of time on the golf course in a private all-male club.
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