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Steve Lyons fired by FOX

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Postby mak1277 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:39 pm

This whole debate makes me think of how freaking awesome it would be if every sporting event had the leverage of the Masters. Remember a few years ago when that crazy lady Martha Burke was boycotting because Augusta didn't let women in? Several of the advertisers were going to pull out because of that. Well, the members said "screw you" and just decided to broadcast the event without any ads.

I really wish every organization would take that kind of hard line against PC advertisers. I know it's a complete pipe dream, but it would be nice.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:24 pm

I'd love to hear your opinion after your daughter gets denied the opportunity to do something important to her because she doesn't have the right equipment.
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Postby mak1277 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:35 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'd love to hear your opinion after your daughter gets denied the opportunity to do something important to her because she doesn't have the right equipment.


Listen, if a group of guys decides they want to have a private club and don't want women in, I'm all for that.

If a group of women want a private club to work out at (which there are a number of), I'm all for that.

The desire to keep women out of a private club is no less of a "right" than the desire for women to get in.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:37 pm

mak1277 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'd love to hear your opinion after your daughter gets denied the opportunity to do something important to her because she doesn't have the right equipment.


Listen, if a group of guys decides they want to have a private club and don't want women in, I'm all for that.

If a group of women want a private club to work out at (which there are a number of), I'm all for that.

The desire to keep women out of a private club is no less of a "right" than the desire for women to get in.


Sure, as long as those endeavors are completely private----not a single dime of public funds for it. But, they're not. And, even if they are, I don't object to their right to do it. I do think intelligent people ought to realize the real impact it has and not support it just because it's legal. Not everything that is legal is right, or fair, or moral, or just.

I could have written those same three sentences you did ten years ago. Then, I had a daughter. You'll be amazed at how different things look when you see if through someone else's eyes.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:28 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
davidmarver wrote:If Lyons had straight-up said "hispanics are more likely to steal your wallet" that would be racism. However, there is a good amount of infering and implication by Fox that has led to his firing. If there wasn't a pre-existing stereotype that hispanics are thieves, no one would have taken any notice to his comment; only because Fox themselves has a pre-existing opinion and/or thought that hispanics are more likely to steal did Lyons get fired. That, the act of firing Lyons, is more indicative of racism than anything Lyons has ever said on air.


Sorry, but in no rational universe does that make sense. Other than John Rocker, most people today carefully couch their racism or are hardly even aware that they hold such biased opinions. We can only infer what Lyons meant. What we know is that in the space of one sentence he was talking about people "hablaing Esapnol" and being concerned about his "missing wallet". That's got nothing to do with other people's pre-existing stereotypes and a lot to do with Steve Lyons' actions.

You're missing my point:

If Lyons had said "parlering le francais" or "sprechening sie deutsch" or "parlareing l'italiano" and then talked about his "missing wallet" no one would have taken any sort of notice. It's only because of the pre-existing stereotype/opinion about hispanics that Lyons was canned for this incident. If he had said it about any other race or ethnicity the inference would have been a lot less convicting.

I guess I'm just sick of seeing the race card pulled anytime a race and something negative are used in the same paragraph; most of the time there's no correlation between the two, yet it's always construed that way. PC gargle at its best.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:53 pm

davidmarver wrote:You're missing my point:

If Lyons had said "parlering le francais" or "sprechening sie deutsch" or "parlareing l'italiano" and then talked about his "missing wallet" no one would have taken any sort of notice. It's only because of the pre-existing stereotype/opinion about hispanics that Lyons was canned for this incident. If he had said it about any other race or ethnicity the inference would have been a lot less convicting.

I guess I'm just sick of seeing the race card pulled anytime a race and something negative are used in the same paragraph; most of the time there's no correlation between the two, yet it's always construed that way. PC gargle at its best.


No, I'm not. I simply think you've got it wrong.

It's because Lyons linked the two in less than a half sentence that he was canned. He's the one guilty of voicing the stereotype. Fox is guilty of holdin ghim accountable for it.

If he had said, "spechening sie deutsch" and then talked about "killing Jews", it would have happened.

If he had said, "parlareing l'italiano" and then talked about "whacking somebody", he would have been canned.

And, if he had said "parlering francais" and then talked about "cheese eating surrender monkeys", he would have been canned.

The prejudiced stereotypes vary according to race, ethnicity, etc. Your logic is simply muddled.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:51 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:If he had said, "spechening sie deutsch" and then talked about "killing Jews", it would have happened.

If he had said, "parlareing l'italiano" and then talked about "whacking somebody", he would have been canned.

And, if he had said "parlering francais" and then talked about "cheese eating surrender monkeys", he would have been canned.

But those are completely, completely ridiculous things to say. Piniella had found a wallet the Friday before the game...saying "my wallet is missing" isn't out of left-field in that instance.

In order for Lyons saying "spechening sie deutsch" and then talking about "killing jews" to be the same as what he said, Piniella would have to have killed a jew -- or something revolving around that -- the previous Friday. That is why it doesn't matter, in a racial context, about the pre-existing stereotype when Lyons said what he said.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:01 pm

davidmarver wrote:But those are completely, completely ridiculous things to say. Piniella had found a wallet the Friday before the game...saying "my wallet is missing" isn't out of left-field in that instance.

In order for Lyons saying "spechening sie deutsch" and then talking about "killing jews" to be the same as what he said, Piniella would have to have killed a jew -- or something revolving around that -- the previous Friday. That is why it doesn't matter, in a racial context, about the pre-existing stereotype when Lyons said what he said.


Now, you are missing my point. You've objected that it is Fox guilty of being racist, not Lyons. But, that's simply nonsensical. The stereotypes exist. And if you use them in a position like the one Lyons had, you can expect to get canned.

Of course, if Lyons had used one of the other languages and linked it to "missing wallets" he may not have been canned. BEACAUSE THERE"S NO STEREOTYPE INVOLVED.

And that's my point. Link the language with the appropriate pejorative stereotype and it's clear that if Lyons or anyone else who used those, they would have been fired.

The ones I chose were deliberately a little ridiculous to make the point. The pre-existing stereotype certainly does matter.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:27 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I'd love to hear your opinion after your daughter gets denied the opportunity to do something important to her because she doesn't have the right equipment.


Listen, if a group of guys decides they want to have a private club and don't want women in, I'm all for that.

If a group of women want a private club to work out at (which there are a number of), I'm all for that.

The desire to keep women out of a private club is no less of a "right" than the desire for women to get in.


Sure, as long as those endeavors are completely private----not a single dime of public funds for it. But, they're not. And, even if they are, I don't object to their right to do it. I do think intelligent people ought to realize the real impact it has and not support it just because it's legal. Not everything that is legal is right, or fair, or moral, or just.

I could have written those same three sentences you did ten years ago. Then, I had a daughter. You'll be amazed at how different things look when you see if through someone else's eyes.


I haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I found this interesting. I have two daughters, and don't see a problem with a club that wants to be "men only." In fact my wife was glad as well when Augusta National told Martha Burke to get bent. I guess I just don't see the problem there.
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:41 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Dawgpound 1613 wrote:There is no example of any minority who has lost their job, regardless of capacity, for making racially insensitive comments. (See, e.g. Bryant Gumbel, Charles Barkley, Dusty Baker)

There are numerous examples of whites who have lost their job, regardless of capacity, for making racially insensitive comments. (see, e.g., Al Campanis, Bill Singer, Rush Limbaugh, Jimmy the Greek, Ben Wright)

So please forgive me if I do not agree with your opinion that had Baker or Guillen made these statements, they would have been fired. There is simply no evidence to support that opinion.


Just off the top of my head...
Reggie White
DJ Star (probably not familiar to people here, but a well-known hip-hop DJ in NYC and other East Coast markets who got canned for calling Indians "rat eaters", I think)
The whole Hot 97 Tsunami song incident involved several minority group members.

And white guys get away with insensitive stuff all the time...remember Paterno's remarks before the bowl game last year? If he's some expendable no-name, you think he doesn't get canned?

And that's the key. The double standard exists, but has little to do with race. It has to do with power and leverage. Guillen, Paterno, and Gumbel have power, so they get the benefit of the doubt. Lyons, Campanis, and DJ Star don't.


You obviously don't undertsand the concept of a double standard. When one group can make disparaging remarks about another group, and the reverse is not true, that is a double standard. A double standard exists within a specific class, such as race, when whites get fired for saying negative things about blacks but the reverse is not true. A double standard exists if a heterosexual (regardless of race) says derogatory things about homossexuals (regardless of race) and gets punished and not vice versa.

And, BTW, Reggie White (a heterosexual) did not make comments about whites - his were about gays - another minority group. But nice try, though. The examples I gave were of negative comments about race that went unpunished. Again - double standard.

And naming radio DJs. Wow. Is that all you can find? Answer, yes. But I admit my statement was too broad and I was discussing just the sports world. But great, you found two outside the sports world - and neither of which involved insensitive comments about whites, but I guess you have to scrape the barrel when trying to prove a point. I guess I should not say "no examples" and just state "very few examples". However, if we're going to leave the sports world, do you want me to go find the names of the much higher number of individuals regardless of profession? My original proposition stands.

And, if you think it has to do with position or power, you're kidding yourself. Barkley/Gumble and Lyons/Jimmy the Greek/Limbaugh are/were sports broadcasters. None had more/less power than the other, yet the latter group was fired and the former group was not. The same goes for Baker/Guillen vs. Campanis (and some would argue the latter has more power as GM, but also more "responsibility") and, again, the latter was fired while the former were not. Again, it is not the person's position. If so, had the colors been reveresed and Costas (much more "power" than Gumble) made a negative statement about blacks, you think he'd still have his job?

Lastly, a "double standard" does not require that one side always get punished while the other does not, just that different standards exist. Hence, the fact that Paterno (whose comments were about rape and offensive to NOW, not race) and Fisher DeBarry and Paul Hornung can make negative comments and "get away with it" does not change the fact that there was a lot more made of their comments than had a black coach or athlete made the same comments about white football players.
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