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keeper rules debate

Postby mak1277 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:03 pm

I'm commish of a first-year, NL-only keeper league. Going into the offseason, we are debating the finer points of some of our keeper rules, and I'd love to get some feedback from the cafe.

Our keeper system is set up so that you lose draft picks based on the round your players were chosen in the prior year, with acceleration. For example:

2006 first round pick would cost you 1st and 11th rd. picks in '07.
All other picks from rounds 2-11 would bump up one round.
Anyone drafted in rounds 12+ would cost a 12th round pick in '07.
Any free agent pickups would cost a 15th rounder in '07.

The debate lies in the fact that one team, through trades, has 2 guys that were drafted in the first round this year. There are 2 schools of thought as far as how to handle this:

1) Go ahead and keep both 1st rounders. One would cost the 1st/11th, the other would cost 2nd/10th. If the owner keeps his 2nd round pick from '06 also, he would slide down to the third round.

2) Prohibit a team from keeping 2 first rounders (or three guys picked in the first 2 rounds, etc.). Basically, the rule would state that no player can be "bumped down" in the draft penalty for keeping him. Therefore, keeping 2 first rounders would be illegal, because one would only "cost" a 2nd round pick in the following year.

This case would also prohibit keeping 3 guys from the first 2 rounds, 4 from the first 3 rounds, etc.

It is important to note that I am the owner with the 2 first rounders....No other team is in this situation, so only I would be "penalized" by a post-season rule change. I'm less concerned about my team getting hurt than I am about crafting the best possible set of rules.

For those of you that have read this far, I'd love your thoughts. Thanks in advance.
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Postby astav28 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:28 pm

Personally, I dont think people should be penalized for acquiring more talent. I am not a fan of the keeper equating with the round they were drafted in anyway.

Our league, we keep 8, ANY 8, and those 8 count as your first 8 picks. We dont believe that a team should be penalized for making good trades. In addition, competitive balance does occur in our league (the last place team from 2005 finished first place in the regular season this year)...and 3rd overall. I was the champion last year and this year I finished in 6th.

But if you like the idea of equating keepers with the round they were picked previously. I say if you have 2 first rounders everything just slides down a round like you said....
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Postby George_Foreman » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:31 pm

The simplest way to deal with this sort of stuff is to not allow people to keep players acquired through trades.

Of course, this is clearly something that needs to be decided before the season starts, as these decisions will effect the value of players being traded, regardless of what you decide.
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Postby Thursday » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:58 pm

astav28 wrote:Personally, I dont think people should be penalized for acquiring more talent. I am not a fan of the keeper equating with the round they were drafted in anyway.

Our league, we keep 8, ANY 8, and those 8 count as your first 8 picks. We dont believe that a team should be penalized for making good trades. In addition, competitive balance does occur in our league (the last place team from 2005 finished first place in the regular season this year)...and 3rd overall. I was the champion last year and this year I finished in 6th.

But if you like the idea of equating keepers with the round they were picked previously. I say if you have 2 first rounders everything just slides down a round like you said....


Agreed. It's a flawed system to keep and lose that round draft pick, and the flaw exposes itself here.

But anyway, like you said is how you should do it. Just slide everything.
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Postby mak1277 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:55 pm

Thursday wrote:
astav28 wrote:Personally, I dont think people should be penalized for acquiring more talent. I am not a fan of the keeper equating with the round they were drafted in anyway.

Our league, we keep 8, ANY 8, and those 8 count as your first 8 picks. We dont believe that a team should be penalized for making good trades. In addition, competitive balance does occur in our league (the last place team from 2005 finished first place in the regular season this year)...and 3rd overall. I was the champion last year and this year I finished in 6th.

But if you like the idea of equating keepers with the round they were picked previously. I say if you have 2 first rounders everything just slides down a round like you said....


Agreed. It's a flawed system to keep and lose that round draft pick, and the flaw exposes itself here.

But anyway, like you said is how you should do it. Just slide everything.


I totally dispute that this is a flawed system. The whole point, to me, is that you get a benefit for good low-round drafting and it makes for more interesting decisions. If you get a guy late in the draft and he turns out to be a stud, you should get the benefit of that in my opinion.
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Postby bazzy_51 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:54 pm

my keeper league and every other keeper league ive ever been in have always been even if the keeper number is 5 or 10 or 20 what ever number of keepers goes in as the first rounds of the draft...i think it is by far the stupidest way to run a keeper league by saying a guy drafted in the first round last year you lose your first rounder this year...what about a year or so ago when Eric Gagne was a at the very least a top 3 round pick in almost every league, then he gets hurt, but you want to keep the guy you have to give up a top pick for an injured guy? i mean i just don't understand that a manager that knows what he or she is doing and gets some outstanding trades to make a team will get penalized for that...IMO i like the 5 for the first 5 round or 10 for the first 10 round rules...
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Postby mak1277 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:01 pm

bazzy_51 wrote:my keeper league and every other keeper league ive ever been in have always been even if the keeper number is 5 or 10 or 20 what ever number of keepers goes in as the first rounds of the draft...i think it is by far the stupidest way to run a keeper league by saying a guy drafted in the first round last year you lose your first rounder this year...what about a year or so ago when Eric Gagne was a at the very least a top 3 round pick in almost every league, then he gets hurt, but you want to keep the guy you have to give up a top pick for an injured guy? i mean i just don't understand that a manager that knows what he or she is doing and gets some outstanding trades to make a team will get penalized for that...IMO i like the 5 for the first 5 round or 10 for the first 10 round rules...


What I like about the draft-pick model is that it makes more guys "keep-able". You have situations, like in my league, where guys like Scott Olsen, Billingsley, Anthony Reyes, etc. are potential keepers, because they are only going to cost you a 12th or 15th round draft pick.

Plus, the guy who drafts Hanley Ramierez in the 20th round gets the benefit of him only costing a 12th round pick next year...you get rewarded for "discovering" guys.

In general, I just think that it makes for more decisions, which is a good thing in my estimation.
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Postby bazzy_51 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:07 pm

mak1277 wrote:
bazzy_51 wrote:my keeper league and every other keeper league ive ever been in have always been even if the keeper number is 5 or 10 or 20 what ever number of keepers goes in as the first rounds of the draft...i think it is by far the stupidest way to run a keeper league by saying a guy drafted in the first round last year you lose your first rounder this year...what about a year or so ago when Eric Gagne was a at the very least a top 3 round pick in almost every league, then he gets hurt, but you want to keep the guy you have to give up a top pick for an injured guy? i mean i just don't understand that a manager that knows what he or she is doing and gets some outstanding trades to make a team will get penalized for that...IMO i like the 5 for the first 5 round or 10 for the first 10 round rules...


What I like about the draft-pick model is that it makes more guys "keep-able". You have situations, like in my league, where guys like Scott Olsen, Billingsley, Anthony Reyes, etc. are potential keepers, because they are only going to cost you a 12th or 15th round draft pick.

Plus, the guy who drafts Hanley Ramierez in the 20th round gets the benefit of him only costing a 12th round pick next year...you get rewarded for "discovering" guys.

In general, I just think that it makes for more decisions, which is a good thing in my estimation.


i like this also, but i am a guy that LOVES trading and do alot of it, thats how in my dynasty league i have ended up with mauer, wright, pujols, carlos lee, beltran and howard (picked him up off FAs after the 2nd game of his rookie season and held onto him)...but if you have guys like this that are able to make quality deals to aquire studs without giving up studs then it really hurts them...
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Postby great gretzky » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:08 pm

not keeping players acquire through trades kinds of mutes the whole point of keeper.

This is a crappy system, but we decide on a source for rankings, then I divide up the players and assigne them a draft value. so if sportsline puts out a top 200 list or something, I cut up the list and if you have someone in the top ten, you lose a first round pick to keep him, top 20, a secodn round pick etc.

not that any one ranking is good or perfect, but if everyone has a thir party source, then its "fair."

A straight keeper is fair to some degree, but with our system, you can at least generate some value, and decide that a player rated as a tenth rounder versus another player ranked higher is better value.

I think the best way is through the auction system and contracts, but that is not feasable for my league mates.

But you shouldn't be effectively penalized for acquiring talent or making trades. you defnitely want an avenue for the weaker teams to get better, otherwise, you can build a dynasty too easily.

I like our system ultimately (even if the cafe doesn't agree) because you don't lock in an advantage for someone who got lucky with taking a howard for example with a low draft pick way back when. you should have an aadvantage but not for a number of years. If someone took howard his rookie year, even with accelearted penalties, its still worth it, you have generated a lot of value.

the problem I see with just straight keeping your top 8 and losing your first 8 picks is that if you end up with more than one first-round guy, you are paying a second round price for a first round pick. That should be rewarded, but it has a cascading effect that can be hard to combat.

In this specific situation, I think the fairset thing to do would be to let you either keep one less player or assing a middle round penalty for having two first roudners. Once you get into double digits, the draft penalty isn't enough, you can still participate in the key runs. shutting you out in a middle round might result in less steals or saves or something.
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Postby dannahann » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:26 pm

mak I think your keeper scheme is just fine. It adds (auction like)strategies to keeper decisions without going the full blown auction route (which is difficult if not all owners are local). ;-D I'd be more inclined to 'penalize' your squad with a rules redo for two reasons:
1) As a longtime keeper league commish myself, it's always best in a rules loophole conundrum, to hold yourself to even a higher standard than you'd hold your league. It sucks sometimes and hurts you competitively but YOU have to be the beacon of integrity or your league suffers.
2) If THIS ruling 'hurts' you but you do it for the good of the league, you can always point back to it if you get into a FUTURE rules bind that some leaguemembers might whine about. Commish cred if you will ;-D
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