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Hillary Clinton's anti-torture speech - 9/28/06

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Postby noseeum » Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:14 am

thedude wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:Hillary speaking, in itself, is a form of torture.


Good call.

She is just trying to make herself out as an angle and republicans out as devils. I would vote for a member of the communist party, if it meant that she not get elected.


That's why I started with "regardless of how you feel about Hillary..."

Forget about her. Talk about the essence of what she said? Agree of disagree? Should we torture or not?
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:31 am

noseeum wrote:
thedude wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:Hillary speaking, in itself, is a form of torture.


Good call.

She is just trying to make herself out as an angle and republicans out as devils. I would vote for a member of the communist party, if it meant that she not get elected.


That's why I started with "regardless of how you feel about Hillary..."

Forget about her. Talk about the essence of what she said? Agree of disagree? Should we torture or not?


Should we throw bad kids into snake pits and whip our wives if the eggs aren't just right?

Asking us if we believe torture is just or not is irrelevant, because any halfway decent individual would say torture isn't right.

The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this. And after stumbling for that answer, find an answer for why you are so pessimistic towards our fighting men and women.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:48 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:49 am

Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.
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Postby Tavish » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:57 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.


Waterboarding is absoultely torture, along with beating, sexual abusing, humiliation, and induced hypothermia.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:59 am

Tavish wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.


Waterboarding is absoultely torture, along with beating, sexual abusing, humiliation, and induced hypothermia.


These practices have not been condoned or practiced because of procedure, if that makes sense. These stories that are run are isolated incidents. Far from the norm.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:01 am

Tavish wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.


Waterboarding is absoultely torture, along with beating, sexual abusing, humiliation, and induced hypothermia.


Agreed. And, as I'm sure you're aware, Omaha, the definition of what does and does not constitute torture is a topic of intense debate right now. To me it's another case of, 'I don't have a specific definition, but I know it when I see it.'

I agree with you that playing loud music and sleep depravation (to an extent) are not torture, but I wouldn't want to see the state of things if we get to the point where waterboarding is no longer considered torture.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:03 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.


Waterboarding is absoultely torture, along with beating, sexual abusing, humiliation, and induced hypothermia.


These practices have not been condoned or practiced because of procedure, if that makes sense. These stories that are run are isolated incidents. Far from the norm.


How do you know this, besides blatant speculation?

And I'm almost positive that induced hypothermia and waterboarding, at least, have been admitted to have been used regularly as methods of interrogation.
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Postby noseeum » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:48 am

Here are the tactics that have been carried out, as ordered, by either the CIA or the military under this administration:
1. Waterboarding - http://www.davidcorn.com/archives/2006/09/this_is_what_wa.php Here's the CIA's definition:
"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt."

2. Sleep deprivation - I know this sounds like no big deal, but there's a documented case of a man being sleep deprived for over 45 days. That's completely insane.

3. Induced hypothermia - Placing a thermometer in a guy's rectum to gauge his core body temperature, than placing him in ice cold water and bringing him down to a temperature just above the point of death. In most cases, that is. Sometimes they don't get it quite right. Sorry, dead guy.

4. 18- to 20-hour-a-day questioning for 48 out of 54 days

5. Withholding pain medication for people suffering bullet wounds

6. Beatings (some have been beaten to death)

7. Sexual abuse short of penetration

8. Stress positions - Handcuffing someone into a standing position for many hours. Here's an example: http://time.blogs.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/agstress.jpg

And these are the tactics that it will left up to the discretion of Bush himself to carry out if and when this bill passes. It won't be subject to congressional or judicial oversight. If he thinks it's OK, as he's shown already, then it's OK. Very nice.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:13 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:The real question should be, "Do you believe we have been torturing our captives?"

And if you believe we have, what evidence, besides blatant speculation, do you have for this.


There's far more evidence than just "blatant speculation." The CIA has admitted to waterboarding, and using other interrogation tactics in their secret overseas prisons. Even the Vice President went so far as to ask congress to make CIA operatives exempt from the anti-torture legislation they were working on.

Torture is one thing, but I can't believe that the Senate basically tossing the constitution down the drain yesterday hasn't become a bigger story.


How, exactly, are they defining torture? I consider torture pulling out toenails, burning, etc. If obnoxious music and lack of sleep is considered torture than we've come a long way down the wrong road.


Waterboarding is absoultely torture, along with beating, sexual abusing, humiliation, and induced hypothermia.


These practices have not been condoned or practiced because of procedure, if that makes sense. These stories that are run are isolated incidents. Far from the norm.


How do you know this, besides blatant speculation?

And I'm almost positive that induced hypothermia and waterboarding, at least, have been admitted to have been used regularly as methods of interrogation.


If these were widely practiced, don't you believe we'd be hearing it all over the place, including from the lips of soldiers we know? To me, it appears as this is another desperate attempt at undermining the actions taken by our military. I'm all for free-speech and disagreeing with whatever you may, including the war, but grasping at straws is not constructive, and that's how I perceive this to be. I'll be honest, I haven't been keeping up with this like I usually would. Been very busy. But I get riled up when someone brings accusations upon honorable men and women.
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