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Clemens selfish?

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Postby acsguitar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:29 pm

wrveres wrote:The blame for the Astos collapase rests in that Bullpen, and the rest of the starting staff. Add in the fact that Ensberg and Lane did squat this year, Taveras getting off to a bad start, the culprits are just to many.

To sit down and say "what if " when it comes to a 44 year old pitcher is just stupid ... :-t

To call him Selfish, when an owner was willing him to pay him no matter what, is even dumber ..

"No Mr. Mc lane ... I don't want your 15 million dollars. I have ethics." ;-7


I just a question of team work.

A team player would say "I'm playing from day one. I'm here for you guys."

He wouldn't say "I don't wanna play half the season."

In 99% of the other situations that does not fly.... Maybee just saying he wasn't the team player he could have been is more fair then calling him selfish
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:32 pm

He has NEVER been a team player as I noted previously. This is not news. And in this case, he was a free agent and has the right to do whatever he wants. He owed Houston NOTHING. You are trying to blame a player for exercising his own self interest and rights and not the management responsible for decision making.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:48 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:And about Clemens...sure he took the big bucks. You want to call him selfish? Fine. But how does it make him any different from the rest of the players in the majors?

Most of them start the season with their teams and don't come in half way through the season.

wrveres wrote:To sit down and say "what if " when it comes to a 44 year old pitcher is just stupid ... :-t

To call him Selfish, when an owner was willing him to pay him no matter what, is even dumber ..

"No Mr. Mc lane ... I don't want your 15 million dollars. I have ethics." ;-7

Of course playing what if is hard to do, but I think it's fair to say that he would probably have had a big effect on the team. Also it's not taking the money that makes him selfish, I'm all for that. I think he was selfish to not start the season with the team.[/quote]
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:58 pm

1337_Dude wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:And about Clemens...sure he took the big bucks. You want to call him selfish? Fine. But how does it make him any different from the rest of the players in the majors?

Most of them start the season with their teams and don't come in half way through the season.

wrveres wrote:To sit down and say "what if " when it comes to a 44 year old pitcher is just stupid ... :-t

To call him Selfish, when an owner was willing him to pay him no matter what, is even dumber ..

"No Mr. Mc lane ... I don't want your 15 million dollars. I have ethics." ;-7

Of course playing what if is hard to do, but I think it's fair to say that he would probably have had a big effect on the team. Also it's not taking the money that makes him selfish, I'm all for that. I think he was selfish to not start the season with the team.



[/quote]


Why is that selfish? Last I heard this is a free country and he was a free agent and could do as he saw fit. He did not owe the Astros (or any other team for that matter) a thing. Play, not play, play in June, sign with Texas, Houston, NY, Boston, or TB for that matter or for whoever paid the mostest for the leastesr as they say.

I just find it amusing that some people are blaming him or doing what he wants to do and for not doing what the Astros may or may not have wanted him to do. Blame the Astros management as that is where the fault lies. Not with the player. And I am no Clemens fan, but implying he owed anything to anyone or any team to decide in March as opposed to whenever he felt like deciding is totally ridiculous imo.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:16 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:Why is that selfish? Last I heard this is a free country and he was a free agent and could do as he saw fit. He did not owe the Astros (or any other team for that matter) a thing. Play, not play, play in June, sign with Texas, Houston, NY, Boston, or TB for that matter or for whoever paid the mostest for the leastesr as they say.

I just find it amusing that some people are blaming him or doing what he wants to do and for not doing what the Astros may or may not have wanted him to do. Blame the Astros management as that is where the fault lies. Not with the player. And I am no Clemens fan, but implying he owed anything to anyone or any team to decide in March as opposed to whenever he felt like deciding is totally ridiculous imo.

He's free to do whatever he wants. But when he waited till half way through the season to come back when I believe he planned on going back to the Astros the whole time. He decided to pick himself over the team, that is pretty much the definition of selfish. He isn't the only reason they are out of it, but I think he had a hand in it.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:26 pm

1337_Dude wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:Why is that selfish? Last I heard this is a free country and he was a free agent and could do as he saw fit. He did not owe the Astros (or any other team for that matter) a thing. Play, not play, play in June, sign with Texas, Houston, NY, Boston, or TB for that matter or for whoever paid the mostest for the leastesr as they say.

I just find it amusing that some people are blaming him or doing what he wants to do and for not doing what the Astros may or may not have wanted him to do. Blame the Astros management as that is where the fault lies. Not with the player. And I am no Clemens fan, but implying he owed anything to anyone or any team to decide in March as opposed to whenever he felt like deciding is totally ridiculous imo.

He's free to do whatever he wants. But when he waited till half way through the season to come back when I believe he planned on going back to the Astros the whole time. He decided to pick himself over the team, that is pretty much the definition of selfish. He isn't the only reason they are out of it, but I think he had a hand in it.



No one was holding a gun to the Astros owner's head saying "You will wait for Clemens to tell you when he is ready and you will sign and pay him". He was a free agent. He could do what he wants when he wants. Astro management had to plan accordingly. If they gambled that Clemens would come back in April then they were foolish and it is their own fault. A free agent can do what he wants to and sign whereever he wants. Clemens did not owe them ANYTHING.

Again, I just do not understand why people are trying to pin Clemens for this wrap. Clemens is no angel and you an call him a mercanery, selfish for money and a lot of other things. But calling him selfish for not signing with a team in April is misguided and trying to blame him for what is CLEARLY imo management's fault. The job of a GM is to build his team. If Clemens was non-commital, the Astros should have moved to plan b well before April. It is not like they were being held hostage by Clemens. They were not guaranteed he would return or return with them for that matter.

Like I said, they were cheap and did not want to spend on bats. The only reason I suspect they spent on Clemens was the guaranteed increase in their attendance. Blame them for a bottom line mentality and not really caring about wining. Blame them for being inept and/or imcompetent if you want to also. But blaming Clemens for management's mistakes or cheapness seems pretty ridiculous to me.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:38 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:No one was holding a gun to the Astros owner's head saying "You will wait for Clemens to tell you when he is ready and you will sign and pay him". He was a free agent. He could do what he wants when he wants. Astro management had to plan accordingly. If they gambled that Clemens would come back in April then they were foolish and it is their own fault. A free agent can do what he wants to and sign whereever he wants. Clemens did not owe them ANYTHING.

See I guess the fact I believe he was going to go back the whole time is what's causing our difference in opinions. Being allowed to do what you want doesn't stop you from being selfish, in fact it actually helps it. If he had gone back to the team, I think they would have been in the playoffs already. Was he forced to go back to them? No. Did he have to tell them what his plans were? No. But when he decided to pull a Brett Favre and hold the team hostage (whether he ment to or not) he was being selfish. The Astros aren't like the Yanks and Sox where they have the random cash to hold back and toss $20,000,000 at Roger when he's ready. They had to hold it for him just incase, beacause you know that if they had said "Well Roger, it was nice knowing ya. We know you had a big hand in getting us to the WS last year, but we're gonna go sign "some player". The fans would have had a hissy fit. They knew that with Roger they were a playoff caliber team, he knew this, and the fans knew it. He knew they'd hold the money just incase he'd come back and I think by him taking so long to decide what to do, he may have had a hand in helping them miss the playoffs.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:47 pm

1337_Dude wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:No one was holding a gun to the Astros owner's head saying "You will wait for Clemens to tell you when he is ready and you will sign and pay him". He was a free agent. He could do what he wants when he wants. Astro management had to plan accordingly. If they gambled that Clemens would come back in April then they were foolish and it is their own fault. A free agent can do what he wants to and sign whereever he wants. Clemens did not owe them ANYTHING.

See I guess the fact I believe he was going to go back the whole time is what's causing our difference in opinions. Being allowed to do what you want doesn't stop you from being selfish, in fact it actually helps it. If he had gone back to the team, I think they would have been in the playoffs already. Was he forced to go back to them? No. Did he have to tell them what his plans were? No. But when he decided to pull a Brett Favre and hold the team hostage (whether he ment to or not) he was being selfish. The Astros aren't like the Yanks and Sox where they have the random cash to hold back and toss $20,000,000 at Roger when he's ready. They had to hold it for him just incase, beacause you know that if they had said "Well Roger, it was nice knowing ya. We know you had a big hand in getting us to the WS last year, but we're gonna go sign "some player". The fans would have had a hissy fit. They knew that with Roger they were a playoff caliber team, he knew this, and the fans knew it. He knew they'd hold the money just incase he'd come back and I think by him taking so long to decide what to do, he may have had a hand in helping them miss the playoffs.



But it is the job of the GM to manage his roster. It is his job to build the team and the fans can scream all they want, but the Astros should of, indeed absolutley needed to give Clemens a deadline. You can't be held hostage like that if you are a GM. Not if you are serious about winning. If a guy will not commit or commit by some reasonable date you move on and tell the fans the sitaution honestly. You do not sit their like a dumb jerk waiting for the Texas con-man to bless you with a decision. Who is runing the team the GM or Clemens? You can't tie up 20M and not pursue other free agents/screw up the team potentially because a one free agent can't make a decision.

And as GM, if Clemens is that respected in Texas, then all he had to do is publicly come out and say that Clemens would need to make a decision by a certain date or they would be forced to move to plan b if there was any chance of winning in 2006. That switches the impetus to Clemens to make up his mind and makes him the bad guy if he wants to hem and haw for months.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:01 am

TheYanks04 wrote:But it is the job of the GM to manage his roster. It is his job to build the team and the fans can scream all they want, but the Astros should of, indeed absolutley needed to give Clemens a deadline. You can't be held hostage like that if you are a GM. Not if you are serious about winning. If a guy will not commit or commit by some reasonable date you move on and tell the fans the sitaution honestly. You do not sit their like a dumb jerk waiting for the Texas con-man to bless you with a decision. Who is runing the team the GM or Clemens? You can't tie up 20M and not pursue other free agents/screw up the team potentially because a one free agent can't make a decision.

And as GM, if Clemens is that respected in Texas, then all he had to do is publicly come out and say that Clemens would need to make a decision by a certain date or they would be forced to move to plan b if there was any chance of winning in 2006. That switches the impetus to Clemens to make up his mind and makes him the bad guy if he wants to hem and haw for months.

I don't disagree that that GM is also at fault for the team having to go on a 15 game winning streak at the end of the season just to have a chance to make the playoffs. He made a terrible desicion to not pursue other guys, but I think it was forced by Clemens. We saw how the deadline thing worked with Favre. As soon as it came that day they gave him a few more days. It's a thing like that where you know that with Clemens you'll be in contention, but without him it's far less likely and if they go on to sign new guys and not make it the GM will be killed in the media and by the fans. Celemns is a Texas boy and you can't just toss him aside no matter how much it makes sense to do so. With Roger being the smart guy that he actually is, if that had happened I have a good fealing he'd have gone over the Rangers and played the blame game with the Astros.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:37 am

do you guys even realize that he couldn't start the season with the team.

He declined arbitration last winter so he wasn't even elig to be signed by the Astros until May.

this whole thread is so funny.
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