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Clemens selfish?

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Re: Clemens selfish?

Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:46 pm

gfantasy wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote: That alternate theory is that Clemens got caught using roids last season and MLB hushed it up and cut an un-official deal with Clemens that he not play for a few months as punishment. Probably total nonsense, but there were rumors flying around in this regard that were on some of the wports radio shows and it would not shock anyone's mind to find out that Clemens' workouts were/are just as much nonsense as Bonds' are. But in his case, he has managed to really avoid any serious suspicion.


Do you have a link for this?



It's all over the web and was discussed ad-nauseum.

See:
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball ... 174998.php

There is an SI article supposedly debunking it at:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/previe ... r0327%252F

But you have to be a subscriber to getthe whole article (which I am not). I am sure there are other articles on this. I am not saying any of this is true, just that the theory has been out there and it is not out of the realm of plausible.
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Re: Clemens selfish?

Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:09 pm

1337_Dude wrote:Of course he's selfish, you wouldn't sit out half the season if you weren't. That said, would I take him on my team? Hecks yes I would. I'd love for him to come back to the Yankees half way through next season.

I do think that if Celemns had been with the team the whole year the Astros would have been in the playoffs. Of course it's just an assumption, but you'd have to think him being there would have translated to another win or two. He's not the only one who should catch blame for this though. Lidge, Garner, and a bad offense are all to blame.

TheYanks04 wrote:Came to NY for the same reason.

Wasn't he traded to NY?


Traded and re-signed in 2001. He accepted the deal to NY and knew Toronto was not going to pay him bigtime in the longterm and if he got a ring as part of it all the better.

2 years/$30.9M (2001-02), plus 2003 option (NY Yankees)
$5M bonus (paid 2001-02)
01:$7.8M, 02:$7.8M, 03:$10.3M player option ($10.3M buyout), 04:$7.2M club option
signed extension 8/00

3 years/$24.75M (1997-99), plus $8.1M 2000 club option (Toronto)
$2M signing bonus
97:$5.5M, 98:$7.5M, 99:$8M, 00:$8.1M option ($1.75M buyout)
side agreement (later invalidated by MLB) gave Clemens:
right to request a trade
right to approve team to which he is traded
right to request trade to Houston after any season during the life of the contract


Note the side agreement.


Nothing wrong with any of that. I just have to laugh at the idea that Clemens really cares about anything but the bottom line, namely his personal well being. He has always been that way. You can call that selfish or you can call that simply being a a mercenary. But in either case Clemens has never considered the interests of any team he plays for to be above his wallet.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:14 pm

gfantasy wrote:
mrkrab2003 wrote:whats selfish about clemens sitting out half the season? Nothing at all. Did you guys ever consider his age might have something to do with this?? Come on now and THINK! Its not like i expected intelligent dialogue with a bunch of new york fans.


Whoa whoa whoa!

It's not NY Fans....it's YANKEE FANS


No...it isn't. All teams have ignorant and selfish fans...not just the Yankees. Yankee fans just get labeled that.

And about Clemens...sure he took the big bucks. You want to call him selfish? Fine. But how does it make him any different from the rest of the players in the majors?
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:16 pm

I don't agree with the above assumption that because Clemens was old it is better he didn't pitch a full season.

They can limit his innings and pitches if thats the case.

5 IP of Clemens is better then alot of other pitchers.

Its just sucky for houston fans who know that if Roger was there from the start they most likley would be back in the playoffs
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:24 pm

acsguitar wrote:I don't agree with the above assumption that because Clemens was old it is better he didn't pitch a full season.

They can limit his innings and pitches if thats the case.

5 IP of Clemens is better then alot of other pitchers.

Its just sucky for houston fans who know that if Roger was there from the start they most likley would be back in the playoffs



Well maybe if Houston had spent some money on a couple of hitters to compliment Berkman, they would be in the playoffs too. They knew the situation with Clemens in the Spring. They were willing to pay him a huge some of money mid-season but not spend on free agents in the off-season? Now why is that?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Clemens puts people in the seats and raises their revenue no matter what happens. While adding a couple of free agents bats will not necessarily do that. How committed to winning is Houston management/ownership when they will not spend to fix the team's deficiencies but will spend a huge chunk of change on an aging verteran in mid-season largely imo to put fans in seats. Is that serious management or management to basically help out the bottom line?
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:30 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:
acsguitar wrote:I don't agree with the above assumption that because Clemens was old it is better he didn't pitch a full season.

They can limit his innings and pitches if thats the case.

5 IP of Clemens is better then alot of other pitchers.

Its just sucky for houston fans who know that if Roger was there from the start they most likley would be back in the playoffs



Well maybe if Houston had spent some money on a couple of hitters to compliment Berkman, they would be in the playoffs too. They knew the situation with Clemens in the Spring. They were willing to pay him a huge some of money mid-season but not spend on free agents in the off-season? Now why is that?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Clemens puts people in the seats and raises their revenue no matter what happens. While adding a couple of free agents bats will not necessarily do that. How committed to winning is Houston management/ownership when they will not spend to fix the team's deficiencies but will spend a huge chunk of change on an aging verteran in mid-season largely imo to put fans in seats. Is that serious management or management to basically help out the bottom line?


Yea its basically bottom line management. The fact they didn't keep beltran a few years back was strange to me.
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Postby rainman23 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:04 pm

This is ridiculous. The guy doesn't doesn't want to play a whole season. Whether he wants to be with his family, or sit around surfing porn sites on the web, that's his perogative. If it's not worth it to anyone to pay him to play half a season, then they won't. Apparently more than one team thought it was a good deal for them. It's a silly, silly argument.
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:18 pm

rainman23 wrote:This is ridiculous. The guy doesn't doesn't want to play a whole season. Whether he wants to be with his family, or sit around surfing porn sites on the web, that's his perogative. If it's not worth it to anyone to pay him to play half a season, then they won't. Apparently more than one team thought it was a good deal for them. It's a silly, silly argument.


Baseball is a team sport. Clemens didn't care enough about the team to play from the start. Its really not fair to the rest of the people on the team.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:24 pm

acsguitar wrote:
rainman23 wrote:This is ridiculous. The guy doesn't doesn't want to play a whole season. Whether he wants to be with his family, or sit around surfing porn sites on the web, that's his perogative. If it's not worth it to anyone to pay him to play half a season, then they won't. Apparently more than one team thought it was a good deal for them. It's a silly, silly argument.


Baseball is a team sport. Clemens didn't care enough about the team to play from the start. Its really not fair to the rest of the people on the team.



I do not think you can blame Clemens. It is not like he said he was going to play and then changed his mind. He has a right to do what he wants to. Like I said, if the Astros were serious about winning they would done other things in the off-season and not sat back and watched. And they could have told Clemens we need a decision by December 31st or we are moving on. They didn't. Clemens never lied about not knowing whether he was coming back or not. There were no false assumptions made. If Stros management is inept or cheap or stupid and they do not make the playoffs as a result, it is not Clemens' fault becuase he was undecided about coming back.

Now you can argue that Clemens was being disingenuos from the start and knwew all along he would come back in mid-season on his own terms. But thatis another matter and perfectly within his right as a free agent to do.
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Postby wrveres » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:27 pm

The blame for the Astos collapase rests in that Bullpen, and the rest of the starting staff. Add in the fact that Ensberg and Lane did squat this year, Taveras getting off to a bad start, the culprits are just to many.

To sit down and say "what if " when it comes to a 44 year old pitcher is just stupid ... :-t

To call him Selfish, when an owner was willing him to pay him no matter what, is even dumber ..

"No Mr. Mc lane ... I don't want your 15 million dollars. I have ethics." ;-7
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