All century team Snubs - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball History

All century team Snubs

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

All century team Snubs

Postby thedude » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:57 pm

Good article on espn free


An old philosophy professor once said, "Dead philosophers aren't here to defend themselves." The implication was that those who were going to teach the subject had the duty to represent them fairly and defend their doctrines honorably.

As a panelist for the "DHL Presents MLB Hometown Heroes" program, I felt the same way about deceased and retired players. If, even as brief guardians of the game's history, we got it right, players long gone would smile and thank us if only they could. I think roughly 140 of the 150 picks (about 95 percent) that the panel and individual clubs turned over to the fans for a final vote were correct.

Hometown Heroes
DHL Presents Major League Baseball Hometown Heroes, a three-part series airing on ESPN, will reveal the 30 men whom fans believe most embody the legacy of their franchise's history. The program will be broadcast at the following times:

• Tuesday -- 7-8 p.m. ET
• Wednesday -- 10-11 p.m. ET
• Friday -- 10-11 p.m. ET

Click here for the list of nominees
From Tuesday through Friday, the results of the Hometown Heroes contest will be announced on ESPN. The players chosen by fans as the best and those who embody the legacy of each of the 30 teams will be revealed.

Some choices seem like a foregone conclusion. Babe Ruth, still the game's standard bearer 58 years after his death, should win over fellow New York immortals Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Yogi Berra. Ted Williams, the most astute mind ever to analyze a pitcher, should emerge as the preeminent Bostonian. Arguably the most statistically persistent player of the last 50 years, Hank Aaron should be the Bravest. Maniacal or not, Ty Cobb rules Tigerland.

The panel -- and individual clubs, which had the last word -- included among its 150 candidates some obvious deceased players to choose from. These included can't-miss players whose lives have long since passed from playing fields into mythology -- including Ruth, Williams and Cobb. But others less mythical and just as deserving were overlooked.

Consider: Despite the panel's recommendations, five top-shelf Hall of Famers who made the "All-Century Team" seven years ago were missing from the final list of candidates because their former clubs did not choose them. Here is my ranking of the grandest omissions, starting with position players.

Rogers Hornsby (Cardinals)

Hornsby is the undisputed king of second basemen. No one at the position even approaches his .577 slugging mark, .434 on-base percentage and 1.021 OPS (on-base plus slugging). Ranked relative to his era, Hornsby's OPS makes him the fourth-greatest hitter of all time.

He hit .358, the second-highest career average to Cobb's .367. Moreover, he hit .402 (and slugged .690) over the five-year period from 1921 through 1925. As player-manager, he was heroic enough: He led St. Louis to its first world championship over Ruth and company in 1926. Even if Hornsby had been nominated, I suspect more modern players like Stan Musial or Bob Gibson might have topped him on votes. Still, the "Rajah" deserved our remembrance.

The Cardinals did elect Albert Pujols, who looks like the real thing. But I would let the 26-year-old cool his heels for a time. Let him sustain his run of excellence and creep up on Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx as one of the great first sackers before we anoint him for immortality. Either Gibson, Lou Brock or Ozzie Smith could have vacated a seat for Hornsby, too.

Jimmie Foxx (A's)

Last week much ado was made of how David Ortiz eclipsed Foxx's Boston record of 50 home runs in a season. Broadcasters said nary a word about Foxx, who once belted 58 homers in a season for the Philadelphia A's. Is this all that lies ahead for "The Beast"? Will he be relegated to a dependent clause in someone else's sentence, a kind of historical footnote to another's achievements? It cannot happen.

While the Oakland offices rightly included Foxx's Philadelphia teammate, Lefty Grove, they inexplicably left off Foxx, whose .609 career slugging average ranks fourth (behind Ruth, Williams and Gehrig) and who knocked in 100 runs 13 times in a row, a feat equaled only by Gehrig.

I have no problem with Grove, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson and Catfish Hunter. But under no circumstances should Double-X ride the pine to make room for Dennis Eckersley on the list of A's greats. He hit 415 home runs to lead the 1930s. With Foxx and mates Al Simmons and Mickey Cochrane, the A's supplanted New York in 1929 as the team to beat. Foxx remains second only to Gehrig among all first basemen.

Eddie Mathews (Braves)

Could Mathews, who died just five years ago, be forgotten already? Mathews is no worse than the third-best third baseman of all time. Mike Schmidt is the consensus choice as tops at the position. Putting George Brett ahead of Mathews won't draw much protest. But no one else at third base other than Schmidt surpasses Eddie and his 512 home runs.

Mathews hit 40 home runs four times and played for the Milwaukee team that beat the Yankees in the 1957 Series and took them to seven games in 1958. Warren Spahn, the left-handed record holder with 363 wins, and Aaron had to make the Braves' best five, but Mathews -- who played for the Tribe in Boston, Milwaukee, and Atlanta -- easily leaps past third baseman Chipper Jones, not to mention other nominees John Smoltz and Phil Niekro.


Walter Johnson (Senators/Twins)

The Minnesotans forgot their Washington, D.C., roots. Although the Twins rightly selected 1960s home run leader Harmon Killebrew, who played his first seven years as a Senator, Killebrew hit 475 of his 573 home runs as a Minnesota Twin. And if they did remember the Senators, how could they leave out Johnson?

"The Big Train," the most famous Senator save Kennedy, won 417 games for a city affectionately known as "first in war, first in peace and last in American League." In 1924, at age 36, Johnson and Hall of Fame mate Goose Goslin led the Senators to their only world championship. Johnson topped the league in wins and ERA and earned his second MVP award. He won 20 more in 1925 and the Senators again made the series.

One of the original five elected to the Hall of Fame in 1936 (along with Ruth, Cobb, Honus Wagner and Christy Mathewson), Johnson was omitted while Kent Hrbek was included. Since Kirby Puckett was nominated, the Twins already had a representative from their two title teams, making Hrbek dispensable.

Christy Mathewson (Giants)

The other omitted pitcher from the original five Hall inductees was Mathewson. Sure, the Giants had a tougher lineup to crack: Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal and Mel Ott. But Mathewson should have edged Ott, the Giants' 5-foot-9 slugger who hit 323 of his 511 home runs (63 percent) at the lefty-friendly Polo Grounds.

Mathewson might be one of the top five hurlers ever. He pitched three shutouts in the 1905 series, ensuring the Giants' victory. He won 373 games, all but one with New York, between 1900 and 1916. Heroic? Matty joined a chemical warfare unit in France during WWI, got a whiff of gas and later contracted tuberculosis. He was just 45 when he died in 1925.

In addition to these historic omissions, the Expos-cum-Nationals, besides including Gary Carter and Rusty Staub, omitted Expo and borderline Hall of Famer Tim Raines, who gave way to Brian Schneider, Jose Vidro and Livan Hernandez.

That Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez did not draw nominations is likely attributed to the anti-steroids sensibility of the times, although only Palmeiro has tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs.

No doubt my arguments will invite counterarguments. But that too is what the Hometown Heroes program is all about.

Ken Shouler has written three baseball books and served as a panelist for the "DHL Presents Major League Baseball Hometown Heroes" project. You can reach Ken at mailto:shouler@optonline.net.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby thedude » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:00 pm

thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby Tavish » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:10 pm

Good omissions, this voting will likely be as embarrasing as the "All-Century Team" was.

In the Best Player in Team History thread I had Walter Johnson as the #1 Twin and Foxx could very easily replace Grove as the #1 from the A's. I just felt the need to give some pitchers more pub in the list. With the fans voting chances are some guys like Pujols/Clemente/Puckett will win spots.

My biggest upset prediction is ignorant fans will vote Trammell over Cobb.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby thedude » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:44 pm

Stan the Man will probably win for the cards (though if this vote was taken 10 years from Pujols will likely win).

My four complaints:

Clemente will beat out Wagner (which he shouldn't).

Bob Feller will win for the tribe over Speaker and Lajoie.

Eddie Collins was snubbed from the chisox list.

And Cal Ripken will likely beat out Frank Robinson.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby thedude » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:49 pm

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060925&content_id=1681865&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


Winners announced.


Atlanta Braves: Hank Aaron
Hall of Famer; baseball's all-time home run leader with 755.

Baltimore Orioles: Cal Ripken Jr.
All-time leader for consecutive games played with 2,632.

Chicago White Sox: Frank Thomas
Two-time AL Most Valuable Player (1993-94); now leading Oakland.

Florida Marlins: Dontrelle Willis
Two-time All-Star (2003, 2005); NL Rookie of the Year (2003).

New York Yankees: Babe Ruth
Hall of Famer; 714 homers; seven-time World Series champion; the legend.

Oakland Athletics: Reggie Jackson
Hall of Famer; 14-time All-Star (1969, 1971-75, 1977-84).

Philadelphia Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Hall of Famer; three-time NL Most Valuable Player (1980, '81, '86).

Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Wade Boggs
Hall of Famer; led AL in batting average (1985-88); 3,000th hit as a Ray.

Toronto Blue Jays: Joe Carter
Five-time All-Star (1991-94, '96); walk-off homer won 1993 World Series.

Washington Nationals: Gary Carter
Hall of Fame catcher; 11-time All-Star; led Montreal before club moved to DC.



Reggie Jackson over Lefty Grove! :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t

Ripken over Frank Robinson! :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t


Grove is the best lefty pitcher ever. It can be argued that he is the best pitcher period.

Ripken was good, but not as good as Robinson.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby Idahofan1 » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:57 pm

did you expect anything different? Im surprised Ruth won for the yankees....
Image
Idahofan1
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Graphics Expert
Posts: 637
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: GM headquarters of the Rubber game's brooklyn dodgers

Postby thedude » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:12 pm

Idahofan1 wrote:did you expect anything different? Im surprised Ruth won for the yankees....



not really. I mention a legend from before 1975 to one of my friends (even the hard core baseball fans) and all i get is blank looks. I bet if i was interviewing a modern player and compared him to a guy who played before 1980 (say tris Speaker) I would create much confusion...
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby Idahofan1 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:03 am

yeah, tis very sad. I think the players back then were more interesting but thats just me.
Image
Idahofan1
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Graphics Expert
Posts: 637
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: GM headquarters of the Rubber game's brooklyn dodgers

Postby thedude » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:56 am

Idahofan1 wrote:yeah, tis very sad. I think the players back then were more interesting but thats just me.


i agree 100%.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby ironman » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:28 am

The arguments for Sammy Sosa being included on the Cubs list is laughable. All steroids aside, who are you bumping off that list to put him in?

Ernie Banks
Billy Williams
Ron Santo
Fergie Jenkins
Ryne Sandberg

You've got four HOFers and one that can be argued should be. Then if you do factor the steroids in it makes sense. Hell, I'd take Andre Dawson over Sosa at this point.

Not that it really mattered. No way Mr. Cub wasn't winning this. ;-D
Image
Wendigo's Camaro
ironman
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 4901
(Past Year: 94)
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Dubuque

Next

Return to Baseball History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Friday, Sep. 19
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Dodgers at Chi Cubs
(2:20 pm)
Boston at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Toronto at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Milwaukee at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
Washington at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Chi White Sox at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
NY Mets at Atlanta
(7:35 pm)
Cleveland at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Detroit at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Seattle at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Arizona at Colorado
(8:10 pm)
Cincinnati at St. Louis
(8:15 pm)
Philadelphia at Oakland
(9:35 pm)
Texas at LA Angels
(10:05 pm)
San Francisco at San Diego
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact