If it isn't steroids what is it?? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2015 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

If it isn't steroids what is it??

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby wrveres » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:40 pm

bigken117 wrote:wr...

I'm not about to get into a pointless 10 page argument...

or agree with Yanks04...

but you honestly believe that every player currently in the game juicing, be it HGH or B12 shots or Andro or Greenies...would have been caught by now? You think the system is flawless?

Just because they haven't been caught...the system and testing is perfect?


No of course I don't think the system is flawless, far from it. It will never be perfect.

I also don't think anybody should be found quilty based upon the "Duck theory" .. you get caught you get caught .. fine. But this endless specultion based upon what a guy "hit" or what a guy looks like is just nuts ....

Maris A) lost his hair .. and (B) never came close to 61 again. Based upon todays standards, we would have him hanging by his toes.

Should I drag out the Jordan pics? He used to have hair too ..
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31783
(Past Year: 641)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: If it isn't steroids what is it??

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:12 am

rib217 wrote:I of course have my opinions on the steroid issue; Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, the whole lot of em. However occasionally you hear or read the post that so and so didnt use steroids or its not proven or whatever they say. You know the posts.

If it isnt or wasnt steroids, then what was it. Why had no one gotten near the Homerun record and then in a relatively short period we saw it beat, beat again, and shattered to pieces? And not by guys in their prime. What other explanations are there?

There must be some other explanation if you stand by the argument that it wasnt steroids. What is it?


Expansion in 98, bad pitching. The last few years runs per game have dropped, mostly due to the influx of young good arms.
Smells Like Teen Spirit
HOOTIE
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe Ranker
Posts: 15116
(Past Year: 292)
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pearl Jam country, right next door to Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains.

Re: If it isn't steroids what is it??

Postby George_Foreman » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:23 am

HOOTIE wrote:
rib217 wrote:I of course have my opinions on the steroid issue; Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, the whole lot of em. However occasionally you hear or read the post that so and so didnt use steroids or its not proven or whatever they say. You know the posts.

If it isnt or wasnt steroids, then what was it. Why had no one gotten near the Homerun record and then in a relatively short period we saw it beat, beat again, and shattered to pieces? And not by guys in their prime. What other explanations are there?

There must be some other explanation if you stand by the argument that it wasnt steroids. What is it?


Expansion in 98, bad pitching. The last few years runs per game have dropped, mostly due to the influx of young good arms.
Hold on here. Are you trying to tell me that baseball goes in CYCLES and that some eras have seen better batting while others have seen better pitching? Are you guys trying to say that the game of baseball changes over time due to differences in trainging, equiptment, ball parks, etc.?! This is ground-breaking stuff here. I was under the impression that the only way people could hit home runs was to use steroids but here you're tossing out like a milllion alternative explanations that could cumulatively have the effect of making one of the greatest hitters ever (Bonds) into perhaps the greatest of all time.

Well, how 'bout them apples.

;-7 ;-7 ;-7 ;-7 ;-7 ;-7

Seriously, though. Did steroids probably have some marginal effect on the game? Sure. Is it possible to quantify that effect and differentiate it from the tons of other changes that have occured in baseball during this latest "offensive era"? Not by any statistical methods I'm aware of. Is there any way to say if it was bigger or smaller than, say, the change to the 5-man rotation or the ever-increasing size of the bullpen? Nope. Steroids was just another thing that happened to baseball. Hitters used it to hit balls farther and pitchers used it to throw balls faster. It probably made a few "good" players "pretty good", probably made a few "very good" ones "excellent". But the only real way to judge players is in their context, and that's how these guys will be viewed for stuff like the HOF. Personally, I think Bonds would have been the best player of this era with or without drugs. Some will surely disagree (although I'm not sure who you'd put up there instead of him...), but there's no way we'll ever know.
"I don't buy everything I read,
I havn't even read everything I've bought"

"I find it more comforting to believe that this [life] isn't simply a test."
George_Foreman
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 4351
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: at Morimoto's, eating $50 worth of sushi

Postby rib217 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:36 pm

Out of curiosity.

When working out became non "Taboo" did Homeruns take off in the early 80's, Mid 80's or did not much change?
Havent players had personal trainers, personal dieticians, etc. for more than just the late 90's and early2000's? Films and analyzing pitchers isnt new is it? if so how new?

Are we agreeing that bats and balls in that period were also juiced even more than before? In the big Home Run years how many new stadiums or altered stadiums were there to make HomeRuns easier.

I lean towards steroids being a big reason, however i would like to hear more reasons why Homeruns seemed to stay the same and then skyrocket for that time period. I do think that once one guy or two guys does it perhaps the impossible became a reality and others overcame mental blocks of the impossible and hit more bombs, so the influx of Homeruns seems somewhat ok but it was pretty out of control dont you think?
rib217
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2726
(Past Year: 8)
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby wrveres » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:02 pm

rib217 wrote:Out of curiosity.

When working out became non "Taboo" did Homeruns take off in the early 80's, Mid 80's or did not much change?
Havent players had personal trainers, personal dieticians, etc. for more than just the late 90's and early2000's? Films and analyzing pitchers isnt new is it? if so how new?

Are we agreeing that bats and balls in that period were also juiced even more than before? In the big Home Run years how many new stadiums or altered stadiums were there to make HomeRuns easier.

I lean towards steroids being a big reason, however i would like to hear more reasons why Homeruns seemed to stay the same and then skyrocket for that time period. I do think that once one guy or two guys does it perhaps the impossible became a reality and others overcame mental blocks of the impossible and hit more bombs, so the influx of Homeruns seems somewhat ok but it was pretty out of control dont you think?


well once players started using weight training, it was not something that became common place until the late 80's

as for the rest if the list, well it all pretty much happened during the 90's ..

A) Tony Gwynn was one of the early pioneers for Video, so that wasn't even commonplace until the mid to late 90's. I remember Tony telling a story on how he had to buy all of the equipment.

B) We had 4 new teams added in the 90's. So that was 40-50 pitchers that weren't MLB "Caliber" now playing at this level.

C) I am not a big fan of the Juiced ball theory, but i have read studies that claimed to prove the ball was wound tighter.

D) In the mid to late 90's modern computer engineering caught of with bat making, and a number of batters even switched to a harder wood. Bonds was one of them.

E) Players always used the Clubhouse trainers until the mid to late 90's. Personal Chefs and personal trainers didn't become common place until payrolls ballooned in the mid 90's..

F) The 90's had the largest expansion of New ball parks ever, most of which were bandboxes.
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31783
(Past Year: 641)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Geek » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:22 pm

wrveres wrote:
Still ... I think you need better examples ..

I have two in mind ..


1. Brady Anderson:

1992: 21 HR
1993: 13 HR
1994: 12 HR
1995: 16 HR
1996: 50 HR
1997: 18 HR
1998: 18 HR
1999: 24 HR
2000: 19 HR
2001: 8 HR

2. Luis Gonzalez.

1991: 13 HR
1992: 10 HR
1993: 15 HR
1994: 8 HR
1995: 13 HR
1996: 15 HR
1997: 10 HR
1998: 23 HR
1999: 26 HR
2000: 31 HR
2001: 57 HR
2002: 28 HR
2003: 26 HR
2004: 17 HR
2005: 24 HR
Geek
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2447
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby wrveres » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:26 pm

Geek wrote:
wrveres wrote:
Still ... I think you need better examples ..

I have two in mind ..


1. Brady Anderson:

1992: 21 HR
1993: 13 HR
1994: 12 HR
1995: 16 HR
1996: 50 HR
1997: 18 HR
1998: 18 HR
1999: 24 HR
2000: 19 HR
2001: 8 HR

2. Luis Gonzalez.

1991: 13 HR
1992: 10 HR
1993: 15 HR
1994: 8 HR
1995: 13 HR
1996: 15 HR
1997: 10 HR
1998: 23 HR
1999: 26 HR
2000: 31 HR
2001: 57 HR
2002: 28 HR
2003: 26 HR
2004: 17 HR
2005: 24 HR


so these competitors used steriods for one year, had amazing success with it, and then quit using ... got it. ;-7
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31783
(Past Year: 641)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby wrveres » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:34 pm

Just out of curiosity ..

Since there is apparently no other explanation .. ;-7
Why do you think he Brady Anderson quit using them out of the blue? I mean it was two years before Mac. He certainly wasn't afraid of bieng caught, since they were available in every clubhouse.

We are talking 10 million dollars a year difference between a 20 Hr hitter and a 50 HR hitter ... but yet he just up and quit using them ..

how odd :-D
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31783
(Past Year: 641)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby davidmarver » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:50 pm

Roger Maris:
1957: 14
1958: 28
1959: 16
1960: 39
1961: 61
1962: 33
1963: 23
1964: 26
1965: 8
1966: 13
1967: 9
1968: 5

Davey Johnson:
1966: 7
1967: 10
1968: 9
1969: 7
1970: 10
1971: 18
1972: 5
1973: 43
1974: 15
1975: 0
1976: 8
1977: 4

Think they had testing then? :-D
Image
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6154
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Postby jealousblues » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm

i think at the time (before anyone really mentioned steroids) the biggest reasons people came up with was

A) Juiced ball

B) watered down pitchign due to expansion.
JH32
jealousblues
General Manager
General Manager

Eagle Eye
Posts: 2471
Joined: 6 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron
Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2015 MLB season starts in 0:08 hours
(and 91 days)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact