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If it isn't steroids what is it??

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Postby Ender » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:55 pm

I think it was a mixture of steroids and juiced balls myself.
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Postby Simulacrum » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:39 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:i think most research has shown andro doesnt work. however, the last 10 years or so have seen a large increase in supplement use (the legal and effective stuff like creatine), nutrition, and weightlifting. these things may have been available for years but they didnt really become popular until the 90's. many of the ball players of the 70's and 80's said they hardly ever spent time in a weight room. there are some smaller parks, potentially watered down pitching due to expansion and possibly juiced balls. maybe not everyone can agree on who took roids, but i think we can all agree a sizable amount of players took roids. beyond that though, i think people are hitting more home runs because they are trying to hit more home runs. chicks dig the long ball, bigger contracts for 30+ homers, etc. people are hitting the weights and watching tape because they want to hit more homers.


Good stuff. ;-D
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Postby tinfoilxtouch » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:19 pm

Like everything else, there is no single cause. I'm sure steroid use helped some people, but it wasn't what I believe to be the leading cause in the HR boosts. I submit:

1. Expansion. Guys who are pitching for teams now wouldn't have been good enough for AA ball way back when. It's the same effect as a 8 team fantasy league compared to a 16 team league... pitching depth vanishes.

2. Contracts. When your salary can range from $500,000 to $25m depending on your performance, you're going to commit your entire life to working out and getting better.

3. Legal sports science. Forget supplements, just nutrition and workout science has come miles from where it used to be. Look at guys like Rich Harden, who are basically body builders. Guys who looked like him weren’t walking around the majors in the 70s… now they are everywhere.

4. The slow-but-sure death of small ball. It’s a different game today, and most teams value the long ball over getting the runner over. Batters are being allowed to take more aggressive approaches.
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Re: If it isn't steroids what is it??

Postby wrveres » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:26 pm

rib217 wrote:I of course have my opinions on the steroid issue; Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, the whole lot of em. However occasionally you hear or read the post that so and so didnt use steroids or its not proven or whatever they say. You know the posts.

If it isnt or wasnt steroids, then what was it. Why had no one gotten near the Homerun record and then in a relatively short period we saw it beat, beat again, and shattered to pieces? And not by guys in their prime. What other explanations are there?

There must be some other explanation if you stand by the argument that it wasnt steroids. What is it?


you do realize weight trainging was taboo in baseball till around the late 70's right?

Add in expansion, a major influx of smaller ballparks, and new wood bats that came into play in the mids '90's ...

it was due to be broken.

73 won't hold either, give them another decade and we will see 80
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Postby TheYanks04 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:34 pm

Duck test time....


quack quack.


In the last 2-3 years we have seen:

1. The Smurf on roids (Bret Boone) go from 40 Hr stud 2b to so bad he had to retire.

2. Sosa...see Boone.

3. Bonds...gee what happened to the great work out program? Not enough flax seed oil pills being pushed to him by Victor Conte and Dr. Ting?

4. Helton loses his power in his early 30's...in Coors no less. All the nonsense about humidor's does not seem to bother Holliday or Atkins, just powerless Todd.

5. Brian Giles loses all his power and is badly outslugged by an aging and virtually washed up Piazza these days.

6. His brother Marcus is not fairing all too well either.

7. Aaron Boone...was never very good, now he is not even worthy of a starting job in the Majors.

Oh, it is all that pitching is so much better...sure it is.

That some of these guys were popping 40-50+ Hrs a year with regularity prior to all this is just a coincidence.
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Postby teddy ballgame » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:23 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:4. Helton loses his power in his early 30's...in Coors no less. All the nonsense about humidor's does not seem to bother Holliday or Atkins, just powerless Todd.

Atkins has less HR at home than on the road. The humidor's effect has been seen across the board, whether it's pitching, or home run totals. It has affected other people than Helton, and pretty much every stat about park effects from this season shows that.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:21 pm

teddy ballgame wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:4. Helton loses his power in his early 30's...in Coors no less. All the nonsense about humidor's does not seem to bother Holliday or Atkins, just powerless Todd.

Atkins has less HR at home than on the road. The humidor's effect has been seen across the board, whether it's pitching, or home run totals. It has affected other people than Helton, and pretty much every stat about park effects from this season shows that.


The players define the stats, not the other way around.

Helton is not hitting homers anywhere. !5 homers, 8 at home this year. This from a guy that used to hit at least twice that many (and was only 31 years old when serious roid testing went into affect).

Holiday has hit 28 homers (twice Helton's) with 17 at home and 11 on the road.

Atkins has 25 with a 12/13 split. It seems only Todd without his vitamins is having a problem here cracking high 20's-30 Hrs. Now why is that? Quack...quack.

And as for the stats...a punchless Helton...no Larry Walker...no Preston Wilson of a few years ago and a team of basically Atkins, Holliday and a bunch of AAA players with the likes of:

C Chris Iannetta
2B Kaz Matsui\Carroll
SS Troy Tulowitzki/Barmes
CF Jeff Salazar


just might have something to do with lessened run production.
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Postby wrveres » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:01 pm

What???
Reality Check time..

Lets try ...

What TheYanks04 forgot to tell you when he wrote:
That some of these guys were popping 40-50+ Hrs a year with regularity prior to all this is just a coincidence.



Your High .. drunk .. something ..

Aaron Boone... Career high 26 HR. He just happend to have a career high in AB's that year, coincedence ?
The Smurf on roids (Bret Boone) go from 40 Hr stud 2b to so bad he had to retire. .. Career High 37 HR's, also a career high in AB's he hit 35 one other time, his second highest AB total

Brian Giles .. Career High 39 .. He averaged in the mid 30's for 4 to 5 years. Are we to suspect everybody that hit 30HR's now? You are nuts ...

His brother Marcus is not fairing all too well either .. career high 21 HR's ..

Helton loses his power in his early 30's...\
A) He hit 49, one time. B) He has a bad back, and (C) if you think the fact that Colorado has one of the best ERA's in the NL, is just some out of the blue, bizarre coincedence, then I want some of what you are smoking ... If you think BYK is "good" all of the sudden, I'll buy some of that smoke off ya. You have had enough.

Just wait till Colorado gets some pitching. That outfield is massive ....

Still ... I think you need better examples ..

I have two in mind ..
And personally, I think as admitted users they should be banned from post season competition all together. I wonder if it is to late to start a petition or something.

anybody have George Mitchells email address?
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Re: If it isn't steroids what is it??

Postby PlayingWithFire » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:05 pm

rib217 wrote:I of course have my opinions on the steroid issue; Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, the whole lot of em. However occasionally you hear or read the post that so and so didnt use steroids or its not proven or whatever they say. You know the posts.

If it isnt or wasnt steroids, then what was it. Why had no one gotten near the Homerun record and then in a relatively short period we saw it beat, beat again, and shattered to pieces? And not by guys in their prime. What other explanations are there?

There must be some other explanation if you stand by the argument that it wasnt steroids. What is it?


Better training, better travel tools, better nutrition, better equipment(bat, and all kind of protections that allow the batter to crowd the plate.) and luck
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Postby bigken117 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:20 pm

wr...

I'm not about to get into a pointless 10 page argument...

or agree with Yanks04...

but you honestly believe that every player currently in the game juicing, be it HGH or B12 shots or Andro or Greenies...would have been caught by now? You think the system is flawless?

Just because they haven't been caught...the system and testing is perfect?
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