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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:47 pm

NZF wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Two words for you.

Nick Markakis.

Tell me how he did in his first two months this year.

Tell me how he did after the all-star break.

The notion that Penn's performance is "obviously a mental thing" and "will not be easy to bounce back from" is purely a figment of your imagination. You could be right. But there are hundreds of other equally plausible explanations and to jump to the conclusions you do is a leap that simply can't be defended. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of baseball knows there are thousands of players who struggled for months or more upon coming to the pros who went on to be All-Stars or more.


Your comparison to Markakis is a very poor one. The relevance is miniscule. You say there are hundreds of equally plausible explanations for Penn's inability to pitch effectively at the major league level. Give me ten.


Explain how the comparison is poor and irrelevant. You have a young player who bats .217 in his first two months--essentially the equivalent time that Penn has had starts. So, according to your logic, I should conclude that it is obviously a mental thing that he'll never bounce back from.

Four months later, he's a contender for RoY.

I'll give you one, because it's the most plausible one.
Young players almost always struggle making the leap to the top.

There's certainly mental and physical components to that, but there's no reason to conclude that it is purely a mental issue that will never be overcome.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:49 pm

NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd.


Of course it is and I've never said that. What I've said is that Penn is ready to pitch in the majors and his struggles should not be put down to his age but are more a mental problem.


He is obviously not ready to pitch in MLB. A 21 yo with 14 starts above AA has no business pitching in MLB unless you are elite. Hayden is talented but there is a reason why he was never an elite pitching prospect.

He should start 07 at AAA, get more seasoning and then go from there.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:06 pm

Yoda wrote:
NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd.


Of course it is and I've never said that. What I've said is that Penn is ready to pitch in the majors and his struggles should not be put down to his age but are more a mental problem.


He is obviously not ready to pitch in MLB. A 21 yo with 14 starts above AA has no business pitching in MLB unless you are elite. Hayden is talented but there is a reason why he was never an elite pitching prospect.

He should start 07 at AAA, get more seasoning and then go from there.


I disagree, for the same reasons I argued before this season and in April and May about Markakis. If handled appropriately, a player with the skill levels of these two players, has little to prove at AAA. Penn started this year at AAA and dominated. What he needs now, just as Markakis did, is the challenge of competing with the best on a daily basis. He'll learn faster what he needs to do to improve playing against those guys. He's already shown he can dominate AAA players. There's only one reason for the Orioles to start him at AAA, and that's the business side of using up his time. Developmentally, he'll learn themostest the fastest by throwing his butt out there every five days.
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Postby Havok1517 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:21 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Yoda wrote:
NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd.


Of course it is and I've never said that. What I've said is that Penn is ready to pitch in the majors and his struggles should not be put down to his age but are more a mental problem.


He is obviously not ready to pitch in MLB. A 21 yo with 14 starts above AA has no business pitching in MLB unless you are elite. Hayden is talented but there is a reason why he was never an elite pitching prospect.

He should start 07 at AAA, get more seasoning and then go from there.


I disagree, for the same reasons I argued before this season and in April and May about Markakis. If handled appropriately, a player with the skill levels of these two players, has little to prove at AAA. Penn started this year at AAA and dominated. What he needs now, just as Markakis did, is the challenge of competing with the best on a daily basis. He'll learn faster what he needs to do to improve playing against those guys. He's already shown he can dominate AAA players. There's only one reason for the Orioles to start him at AAA, and that's the business side of using up his time. Developmentally, he'll learn themostest the fastest by throwing his butt out there every five days.


As I've mentioned before, I'm a big fan of both Penn & Markakis. I actually thought Markakis would be better than just about everybody thought he would be and its looking like I'm right there. I have no problem with Penn starting the season in the minors until he's comfortable, in fact, I'd like it. But its doubtful considering the current rotation status of Baltimore. Anyone that says he's horrible and doesn't have it obviously hasn't seen him pitch and really don't know what they're talking about. You gotta look beyond the boxscore sometimes. I really think he'll be the #1 starter eventually for Baltimore.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:35 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Yoda wrote:
NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd.


Of course it is and I've never said that. What I've said is that Penn is ready to pitch in the majors and his struggles should not be put down to his age but are more a mental problem.


He is obviously not ready to pitch in MLB. A 21 yo with 14 starts above AA has no business pitching in MLB unless you are elite. Hayden is talented but there is a reason why he was never an elite pitching prospect.

He should start 07 at AAA, get more seasoning and then go from there.


I disagree, for the same reasons I argued before this season and in April and May about Markakis. If handled appropriately, a player with the skill levels of these two players, has little to prove at AAA. Penn started this year at AAA and dominated. What he needs now, just as Markakis did, is the challenge of competing with the best on a daily basis. He'll learn faster what he needs to do to improve playing against those guys. He's already shown he can dominate AAA players. There's only one reason for the Orioles to start him at AAA, and that's the business side of using up his time. Developmentally, he'll learn themostest the fastest by throwing his butt out there every five days.


Well, I go by what the numbers say. His MLB numbers in 05 and 06 show he is not matured and needs more time to develop. MLB is not the best nor the easiest place to learn for pitchers especially AL East.
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Postby mikekim2121 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:57 pm

As a 21 year old in 2000, some guy's statline looked like this:

86 IP
5 GS
11 HR
54 BB
64 K
6.49 ERA
1.81 WHIP
.302 BAA

I bet you didn't even write this guy off because you never heard of him.

I'm certainly not going to say Penn is as good as this guy but 11 starts and pronouncing him dead is ridiculous. I know this mystery pitcher only started 5 games but even his next season where he had 4 GS is unimpressive.
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Postby mikekim2121 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:01 pm

Yoda wrote:Well, I go by what the numbers say.


Then why was Johan Santana even in the league after his first few starts in the majors? I mean he was a rule 5 pick to begin with so I guess he should've just learned how to bag groceries after that season. He must've not been ready, especially after not holding his own in a not that strong division like the central.
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Postby Young 8 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:09 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:Two words for you.

Nick Markakis.

Tell me how he did in his first two months this year.

Tell me how he did after the all-star break.
.


hey...you need an update

Markakis has been awful, i repeat AWFUL in September

so...he had 1 good month and 1 great month

plus he is batting 0.175 RISP w/2 outs
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Postby Yoda » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:29 pm

mikekim2121 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Well, I go by what the numbers say.


Then why was Johan Santana even in the league after his first few starts in the majors? I mean he was a rule 5 pick to begin with so I guess he should've just learned how to bag groceries after that season. He must've not been ready, especially after not holding his own in a not that strong division like the central.


Ummm I said that he is not ready to be at MLB and should be learning at AAA. I think Hayden will be ok in time.
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Postby Havok1517 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:33 pm

Young 8 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:Two words for you.

Nick Markakis.

Tell me how he did in his first two months this year.

Tell me how he did after the all-star break.
.


hey...you need an update

Markakis has been awful, i repeat AWFUL in September

so...he had 1 good month and 1 great month

plus he is batting 0.175 RISP w/2 outs


Nobody in Baltimore had a good Sept. Check your stats again Young. Markakis had 1 good month, 1 very good month, and 1 great month. For a rookie that started the year like he did and went on to have the year he did. I'd gladly take it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/770 ... 3U_huFCLcF

But this is about Penn not Markakis, lets get back on track.
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