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HAYDEN PENN...........stud

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Postby NZF » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:21 pm

Either the Orioles have no idea or Penn just can't cut it at this level.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:45 pm

NZF wrote:Either the Orioles have no idea or Penn just can't cut it at this level.


Or 21 year old pitchers often struggle in their debut.

Are people really this clueless about this type of thing? Penn's no different than hundreds of other kids with his level of talent. It took Bonderman close to 2 years to get it on track. Get real.
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Postby NZF » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:50 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
NZF wrote:Either the Orioles have no idea or Penn just can't cut it at this level.


Or 21 year old pitchers often struggle in their debut.

Are people really this clueless about this type of thing? Penn's no different than hundreds of other kids with his level of talent. It took Bonderman close to 2 years to get it on track. Get real.


LMAO. His debut :-?

He's had 6 starts this season after having 8 last year and all of those six starts have been a disaster, and the comparison with Bonderman is tripe. Bonderman had an ordinary year as a 20 year old in his rookie season but nothing to compare to Penn's woeful efforts. And as a 21 year old in his second year, Bonderman improved markedly which is a great sign for identifying a future stud. Penn has gone a long way backwards from his 2005 stint. That's not a good indicator and a clear sign to me that he either hasn't got the mental fortitude to pitch at this level or he's simply not that good. From the scouting reports I've read, I'm assuming it's the former.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:59 pm

NZF wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
NZF wrote:Either the Orioles have no idea or Penn just can't cut it at this level.


Or 21 year old pitchers often struggle in their debut.

Are people really this clueless about this type of thing? Penn's no different than hundreds of other kids with his level of talent. It took Bonderman close to 2 years to get it on track. Get real.


LMAO. His debut :-?

He's had 6 starts this season after having 8 last year and all of those six starts have been a disaster, and the comparison with Bonderman is tripe. Bonderman had an ordinary year as a 20 year old in his rookie season but nothing to compare to Penn's woeful efforts. And as a 21 year old in his second year, Bonderman improved markedly which is a great sign for identifying a future stud. Penn has gone a long way backwards from his 2005 stint. That's not a good indicator and a clear sign to me that he either hasn't got the mental fortitude to pitch at this level or he's simply not that good. From the scouting reports I've read, I'm assuming it's the former.


Or, it could be a sign that most young pitchers struggle early. Bonderman started off 2003 with an ERA over 6.5, then settled in, then closed off 2003 with two straight months of ERA over 6.6. If you look back over the Cafe you'll find a lot of people questioning whether he was the real thing.

Yes, Bonderman improved in 2004...and so did Penn this year if you look at his whole record and not just his major league starts.

I have no idea whether Penn is going to be great or not. I do know that judging him on the basis of 14 starts spread over 2 years is lunacy. Lots of guys stuggle. Ripken was awful his first 3 months in the bigs.

14 games isn't a clear sign of squat.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:02 pm

NZF wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
NZF wrote:Either the Orioles have no idea or Penn just can't cut it at this level.


Or 21 year old pitchers often struggle in their debut.

Are people really this clueless about this type of thing? Penn's no different than hundreds of other kids with his level of talent. It took Bonderman close to 2 years to get it on track. Get real.


LMAO. His debut :-?

He's had 6 starts this season after having 8 last year and all of those six starts have been a disaster, and the comparison with Bonderman is tripe. Bonderman had an ordinary year as a 20 year old in his rookie season but nothing to compare to Penn's woeful efforts. And as a 21 year old in his second year, Bonderman improved markedly which is a great sign for identifying a future stud. Penn has gone a long way backwards from his 2005 stint. That's not a good indicator and a clear sign to me that he either hasn't got the mental fortitude to pitch at this level or he's simply not that good. From the scouting reports I've read, I'm assuming it's the former.


He is clearly not ready. I would give him more than 14 starts to evaluate a 21 yo prospect but that is just me. It is not easy to make a jump from AAA to MLB.
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Postby NZF » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:59 pm

Yoda wrote:
He is clearly not ready. I would give him more than 14 starts to evaluate a 21 yo prospect but that is just me. It is not easy to make a jump from AAA to MLB.


It is easy to say he is clearly not ready due to his disatrous results but I just don't buy it. He made eight starts in the majors in 2005 and was dominating in AAA this season so you would have to assume he was ready. Certainly the Orioles heirarchy thought so and they're paid a lot of money to think correctly about those things.

Penn has an excellent K9 H9 and BB9 in the minors and yet in 14 major league starts can't K anyone, walks all and sundry and has an horrendous H9 and HR9. This is obviously more a mental issue than a physical issue and one that will not be easy to bounce back from. Especially given his age.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:29 pm

NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:
He is clearly not ready. I would give him more than 14 starts to evaluate a 21 yo prospect but that is just me. It is not easy to make a jump from AAA to MLB.


It is easy to say he is clearly not ready due to his disatrous results but I just don't buy it. He made eight starts in the majors in 2005 and was dominating in AAA this season so you would have to assume he was ready. Certainly the Orioles heirarchy thought so and they're paid a lot of money to think correctly about those things.

Penn has an excellent K9 H9 and BB9 in the minors and yet in 14 major league starts can't K anyone, walks all and sundry and has an horrendous H9 and HR9. This is obviously more a mental issue than a physical issue and one that will not be easy to bounce back from. Especially given his age.


Two words for you.

Nick Markakis.

Tell me how he did in his first two months this year.

Tell me how he did after the all-star break.

The notion that Penn's performance is "obviously a mental thing" and "will not be easy to bounce back from" is purely a figment of your imagination. You could be right. But there are hundreds of other equally plausible explanations and to jump to the conclusions you do is a leap that simply can't be defended. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of baseball knows there are thousands of players who struggled for months or more upon coming to the pros who went on to be All-Stars or more.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:36 pm

NZF wrote:
Yoda wrote:
He is clearly not ready. I would give him more than 14 starts to evaluate a 21 yo prospect but that is just me. It is not easy to make a jump from AAA to MLB.


It is easy to say he is clearly not ready due to his disatrous results but I just don't buy it. He made eight starts in the majors in 2005 and was dominating in AAA this season so you would have to assume he was ready. Certainly the Orioles heirarchy thought so and they're paid a lot of money to think correctly about those things.

Penn has an excellent K9 H9 and BB9 in the minors and yet in 14 major league starts can't K anyone, walks all and sundry and has an horrendous H9 and HR9. This is obviously more a mental issue than a physical issue and one that will not be easy to bounce back from. Especially given his age.


Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd. Most pitchers are still at A or AA at his age. Plus he only pitched half the season at AAA so it isn't like he is completely developed yet. Give him a few years in MLB and then if he still sports a 36.82 ERA, then I will agree with you. ;-)
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Postby NZF » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:38 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Two words for you.

Nick Markakis.

Tell me how he did in his first two months this year.

Tell me how he did after the all-star break.

The notion that Penn's performance is "obviously a mental thing" and "will not be easy to bounce back from" is purely a figment of your imagination. You could be right. But there are hundreds of other equally plausible explanations and to jump to the conclusions you do is a leap that simply can't be defended. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of baseball knows there are thousands of players who struggled for months or more upon coming to the pros who went on to be All-Stars or more.


Your comparison to Markakis is a very poor one. The relevance is miniscule. You say there are hundreds of equally plausible explanations for Penn's inability to pitch effectively at the major league level. Give me ten.
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Postby NZF » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:45 pm

Yoda wrote:Yes but to say that based on 14 starts a 21 yo is an absolute bust is absurd.


Of course it is and I've never said that. What I've said is that Penn is ready to pitch in the majors and his struggles should not be put down to his age but are more a mental problem.
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