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How was fantasy baseball created?

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Postby noseeum » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:53 pm

Tavish wrote:
shortsavage wrote:A bigger question that I'm getting at is: why don't more people question traditional fantasy scoring systems?


Why don't people question the rules for Monopoly more often? If they changed them some they could create a more realistic property ownership game.

People like standard rules, default settings, and vanilla ice cream. For those that don't there are plenty of oppurtunity for variation. But for most people, the standard rules make a fun game that doesn't require any more investment to get started than a few hours and $10 for a couple of fantasy mags before the draft.


Good extra monoploy rule: You can only buy two properties the first time around. Eliminates that luck roller who gets doubles and gets to buy like 5 properties the first time. Really evens things out for the rest of the game. Try it out.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:21 pm

shortsavage wrote:A bigger question that I'm getting at is: why don't more people question traditional fantasy scoring systems?


I'd agree with Tavish's gist. That basically there is an industry geared around predicting the traditional 5x5 stats. That what makes a great baseball player is not always what makes a great fantasy baseball player and there's reams of cheap and easy information out there that tells you who is a good fantasy baseball player. There's auction values, there's ADPs, there's sleepers, there's all sorts of stuff. And the further you start deviating from the 5x5, the more difficult it becomes to obtain the right informatio to evaluate and forecast players' performances.

And some people want to try to emulate actual player values but the majority just want a chance to trash talk their friends. And so they want something that they know, that they're familiar with, that they understand. And also the more complicated you get, the more players will get the heebie-jeebies (hey, I was a social science major so I wouldn't HAVE to take any math!).

So you keep it simple.
Last edited by Matthias on Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby shortsavage » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:21 pm

Tavish wrote:
shortsavage wrote:A bigger question that I'm getting at is: why don't more people question traditional fantasy scoring systems?


Why don't people question the rules for Monopoly more often? If they changed them some they could create a more realistic property ownership game.

People like standard rules, default settings, and vanilla ice cream. For those that don't there are plenty of oppurtunity for variation. But for most people, the standard rules make a fun game that doesn't require any more investment to get started than a few hours and $10 for a couple of fantasy mags before the draft.


Hummmm. Yeah, whenever I do my rookie fantasy leagues, I make them 5x5 just for simplicity.

I suppose 5x5 is fine so long as owners realize that what they are doing only loosely relates to what a GM would do, as in tennis vs. ping pong.
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Postby Tavish » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:42 pm

shortsavage wrote:I suppose 5x5 is fine so long as owners realize that what they are doing only loosely relates to what a GM would do, as in tennis vs. ping pong.


Even the most detailed fantasy leagues only loosely relate to what an actual GM does. That's why I said earlier that fantasy leagues haven't move further away from the real game over time. They have probably grown closer. More people are joining keeper leagues/ contract leagues, and the popularity of auction leagues seems to be slowly regaining momentum. People are adding things to the game they find fun, adding more detailed statistics just isn't one of them.
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Postby shortsavage » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:28 pm

Tavish wrote:
shortsavage wrote:I suppose 5x5 is fine so long as owners realize that what they are doing only loosely relates to what a GM would do, as in tennis vs. ping pong.


Even the most detailed fantasy leagues only loosely relate to what an actual GM does. That's why I said earlier that fantasy leagues haven't move further away from the real game over time. They have probably grown closer. More people are joining keeper leagues/ contract leagues, and the popularity of auction leagues seems to be slowly regaining momentum. People are adding things to the game they find fun, adding more detailed statistics just isn't one of them.


Yeah, I thought I was in the minority here, just expected a few people around here to be into stats. My dynasty league has a rules meeting where we go over our points system annually.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:27 pm

I take a much different way of looking at things. I think that the standard 5x5 is actually more complex than a purely merit based system (with statistics that are completely based around the player's personal production while removing as much external noise as possible). In a merit based system all you have to determine is how well the player is likely to play. In a standard 5x5 you have to determine not only talent but also opportunity. For hitters that includes position in the order and surrounding talent (which goes a long way toward influencing r/rbi) and management tendancies (which goes a long way toward influencing sb's). For pitchers saves and wins are very team/role dependant while even numbers such as era/whip can be heavily influenced by team defense and quality of bullpen.

So while some people may call standard 5x5 roto 'easier' I just say it's a different game. It's not pong versus tennis...it's more like basketball versus soccer. They're completely different sports just as 5x5 and more saber-based leagues are different games. I honestly prefer the 5x5 leagues since (a) I have absolutely no aspirations to be a GM and could care less if my fantasy analysis matches up with real baseball value, (b) there is SO much depth that is available in 5x5 analysis that I'd rather continue delving further into all of the nuances in 5x5 than spread my time and efforts thin by learning multiple formats and (c) 5x5 is so common that it makes it easier to have meaningful discussions about players that are based on a common set of assumptions. While custom scoring leagues are very interesting to the people involved in them they eliminate the common ground that allows you to discuss your league in a meaningful fashion with other people that aren't in your league.
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Postby davidmarver » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:43 am

Solid post LL. ;-D

I use runs created, BABIP, LD%, and all the other sabermetric stats when evaluating player talent. From that, and his situation -- slot in lineup, ballpark, division, etc. -- you determine how much better you think a player will do in the 5x5 categories.
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Postby Madison » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:51 am

Tavish wrote:
shortsavage wrote:A bigger question that I'm getting at is: why don't more people question traditional fantasy scoring systems?


Why don't people question the rules for Monopoly more often? If they changed them some they could create a more realistic property ownership game.


Beat me to it, except I was going to use a video game as an example. :-D Nicely done. ;-D
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Postby shortsavage » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:51 pm

I want to hear your video game comparison Madison because Monopoly doesn't really work for me. It actually has many, many variations. Lots of people question the rules to Monopoly. In fact, I've encountered many people who won't play Monopoly because they haven't found a way to play the game that enough people enjoyed. In terms of uniformally accepted rules, Monopoly is very different than Roto 5x5.

I don't really see the point of playing 5x5 when so many games that are more realistic and not much more difficult to craft are readily available. This seems like playing mound ball instead of watching the game to me.
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Postby The Miner Part 2 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:09 pm

shortsavage wrote:I want to hear your video game comparison Madison because Monopoly doesn't really work for me. It actually has many, many variations. Lots of people question the rules to Monopoly. In fact, I've encountered many people who won't play Monopoly because they haven't found a way to play the game that enough people enjoyed. In terms of uniformally accepted rules, Monopoly is very different than Roto 5x5.

I don't really see the point of playing 5x5 when so many games that are more realistic and not much more difficult to craft are readily available. This seems like playing mound ball instead of watching the game to me.


so tell us what the perfect fantasy game should look like.
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