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Postby smoovethug » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:23 am

Tough play. I would have folded. First off I'm a tight player generally but I would have put the other guy on the set of 8's. You're right for thinking a limp on JJ or AA was unlikely. It was a good move to make the donk pay for his draw because more often than not he wont hit it but you had to think that the other guy has you beat.

PS: I would have raised preflop with AJs on the button and only 1 caller in. That's just me though
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Postby DK » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:01 pm

Madison wrote:Fold.

You knew you were ahead of the donk, but the other guy most likely had him pegged as a donk as well, and wanted to make him put all his chips in the pot on the draw. You only had 4 outs to win the hand at the most, if in fact the other guy had you beaten.

Depends on your read of the reraiser though. If he was a solid player, and it sounds like he was, you figured you were behind, in which case folding is the right play. If you really believed you were holding the best hand, there's no way you fold to lesser hands or draws.

So since you believed your read that you were holding the best hand, you played it correctly. Just missed on the read is all, and got sucked out on.

Oh, as to preflop, I rarely raise with A/J as it's a relatively weak hand. I will once in awhile just to throw a curveball out there, but for the most part I don't. Too easy to run into a better hand and get sandbagged for a solid chunk of change.


As a barely scraping novice at poker Mad, I'm curious, what do you think of as relatively strong starting hands? :-?
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Postby Dan Lambskin » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:47 am

in a tourney i probably would have folded if losing would knock me out/cripple me...but it would be a tough laydown.

in a cash game/sit-n-go, i'd probably take my chances
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Postby Madison » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:38 pm

DK wrote:
Madison wrote:Fold.

You knew you were ahead of the donk, but the other guy most likely had him pegged as a donk as well, and wanted to make him put all his chips in the pot on the draw. You only had 4 outs to win the hand at the most, if in fact the other guy had you beaten.

Depends on your read of the reraiser though. If he was a solid player, and it sounds like he was, you figured you were behind, in which case folding is the right play. If you really believed you were holding the best hand, there's no way you fold to lesser hands or draws.

So since you believed your read that you were holding the best hand, you played it correctly. Just missed on the read is all, and got sucked out on.

Oh, as to preflop, I rarely raise with A/J as it's a relatively weak hand. I will once in awhile just to throw a curveball out there, but for the most part I don't. Too easy to run into a better hand and get sandbagged for a solid chunk of change.


As a barely scraping novice at poker Mad, I'm curious, what do you think of as relatively strong starting hands? :-?


In cash games, due to their being so many donkeys online, I play very tight. No reason not to since there's always someone to pay off your good hands. You can flop a nut flush and someone will pay you off with mid pair, so no need to push preflop unless you're really strong (A/A, K/K).

Something a lot of people don't realize is A/K or A/x may look pretty in your hand, but you're still behind to any pocket pair (even dueces), and it's not nearly the coinflip that some think since it is. In an all in preflop situation, A/K vs. 2/2, is basically a coinflip (dueces slightly ahead 52% to 48%) since you'll see all 5 cards. In a cash game, typically it's not all in preflop, so you only get to see 3 cards before having to make a decision. That cuts the odds down considerably for the A/K to hit one and be ahead, when you're talking 3 cards versus all 5. If someone's got a read on you that you're over agressive with A/x, they'll take advantage and wipe you out with mid to small pocket pairs.

Myself, I love to bait and trap. Picked up Q/Q in my big blind last night, flopped a third one, and no one believed me. Made for a very nice pot (basically tripled up - would have been more, but I had the biggest stack at the table before the hand started, so I took as much as they had at the table). B-)


Oh, and tourney play is totally different than cash game play, so note that before anyone wants to try to rip me for no preflop raise with my Q/Q. ;-)
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Postby pokerplaya » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:07 pm

Madison wrote:
DK wrote:
Madison wrote:Fold.

You knew you were ahead of the donk, but the other guy most likely had him pegged as a donk as well, and wanted to make him put all his chips in the pot on the draw. You only had 4 outs to win the hand at the most, if in fact the other guy had you beaten.

Depends on your read of the reraiser though. If he was a solid player, and it sounds like he was, you figured you were behind, in which case folding is the right play. If you really believed you were holding the best hand, there's no way you fold to lesser hands or draws.

So since you believed your read that you were holding the best hand, you played it correctly. Just missed on the read is all, and got sucked out on.

Oh, as to preflop, I rarely raise with A/J as it's a relatively weak hand. I will once in awhile just to throw a curveball out there, but for the most part I don't. Too easy to run into a better hand and get sandbagged for a solid chunk of change.


As a barely scraping novice at poker Mad, I'm curious, what do you think of as relatively strong starting hands? :-?


In cash games, due to their being so many donkeys online, I play very tight. No reason not to since there's always someone to pay off your good hands. You can flop a nut flush and someone will pay you off with mid pair, so no need to push preflop unless you're really strong (A/A, K/K).

Something a lot of people don't realize is A/K or A/x may look pretty in your hand, but you're still behind to any pocket pair (even dueces), and it's not nearly the coinflip that some think since it is. In an all in preflop situation, A/K vs. 2/2, is basically a coinflip (dueces slightly ahead 52% to 48%) since you'll see all 5 cards. In a cash game, typically it's not all in preflop, so you only get to see 3 cards before having to make a decision. That cuts the odds down considerably for the A/K to hit one and be ahead, when you're talking 3 cards versus all 5. If someone's got a read on you that you're over agressive with A/x, they'll take advantage and wipe you out with mid to small pocket pairs.

Myself, I love to bait and trap. Picked up Q/Q in my big blind last night, flopped a third one, and no one believed me. Made for a very nice pot (basically tripled up - would have been more, but I had the biggest stack at the table before the hand started, so I took as much as they had at the table). B-)


Oh, and tourney play is totally different than cash game play, so note that before anyone wants to try to rip me for no preflop raise with my Q/Q. ;-)


I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but you don't usually limp with AK, do you? (I know you didn't say that you did, but you didn't say that you didn't either) I realize that AK is only Ace high and needs to usually improve to win, but a lot of times (at least I find) that you will be up against AQ/AJ and you will reap the rewards with someone playing Ax way too fast.

Obviously, you use your judgement on the situation, but I like to just about always raise 3-5x the big blind with an AK and lead out on the flop regardless unless it comes really coordinated. a lot of times you'll scoop the pot right there, and if you meet any resistance you simply muck it. Playing my AK fairly strong has won me quite a bit over my time playing.
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Postby Madison » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:41 pm

pokerplaya wrote:I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but you don't usually limp with AK, do you? (I know you didn't say that you did, but you didn't say that you didn't either) I realize that AK is only Ace high and needs to usually improve to win, but a lot of times (at least I find) that you will be up against AQ/AJ and you will reap the rewards with someone playing Ax way too fast.

Obviously, you use your judgement on the situation, but I like to just about always raise 3-5x the big blind with an AK and lead out on the flop regardless unless it comes really coordinated. a lot of times you'll scoop the pot right there, and if you meet any resistance you simply muck it. Playing my AK fairly strong has won me quite a bit over my time playing.


I've been toying with A/K for quite some time. Raising preflop and then bluffing at the flop just doesn't pay much. Small pots. Couple that with the times you meet resistance, or go head first into a set or something, and the profit margin isn't all that good. I toy with it. Sometimes I'll make a huge raise, sometimes a normal one, sometimes a little one, and sometimes I'll limp. Had a guy at my table last night that kept raising preflop with any two suited facecards, A/x, etc. Twice I took his money preflop simply by re-raising him all in with my A/K.

A/K is a wildcard for me in cash games since what I do all depends on all the factors. Who's at the table, who's already called, raised, or folded, table image since I sat down, yadda, yadda, yadda. I mix it up quite a bit simply to keep people off guard. If you become predictable, you're dead. B-)
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Postby pokerplaya » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:54 pm

Madison wrote:If you become predictable, you're dead. B-)


Couldn't agree with that more!! ;-D

And in a nice coincidental twist, while typing this message I just picked up AK. Won the pot too. ;-D
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Postby bleach168 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:05 am

I limp sometimes with AA. Is this a bad play?
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Postby pokerplaya » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:33 am

bleach168 wrote:I limp sometimes with AA. Is this a bad play?


Depends.

There are way too many variables in poker to make this a yes or no question.

Your position, your table image, whether the table has been super aggressive or tight, other hands you have recently showed down, your chip stack, tournament or cash game, to name some of the more important factors.

It's good to mix up your play, and limping with AA in first or second position and then coming over the top if the table is very aggressive and you are likely to get raised will sometimes pay off. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, but some swear by it. I do it sometimes just to switch it up, but I'm more likely to make that move with QQ than AA. In short, I don't believe slow playing rockets really nets you that much more in the long run. You may win a few larger pots here and there by forcing weaker hands to take the lead, but you can very easily lose your entire chip stack when you let that 910 suited in for cheap and they flop a straight and you can't get off your pocket AA.

Just my 2 cents, as I'm sure some will disagree. ;-D
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Postby Madison » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:18 pm

bleach168 wrote:I limp sometimes with AA. Is this a bad play?


I rarely limp with A/A. As Pokerplaya said though, if you're in early position at a loose table, it can be a fantastic play since you'll reraise over the top of the raiser and get them to stick even more money in the pot preflop.

I've seen people limp and trap with it for some very large pots, but I've also seen it cracked way too many times with junk cards due to the limp. Other than the early position limp hoping for a raise, I don't limp with A/A personally.
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