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Why no love for Thomas in MVP talk?

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Postby noseeum » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:19 pm

Madison wrote:For me, MVP has always stood for Most Valuable Player. It doesn't state anywhere that the award is the most valuable player to his particular team, it's the most valuable player period. Thomas? Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with the MVP award as his stat line is definitely less than impressive.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player, it's Ortiz.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.


I think it's too early to say Oritz, considering we don't know how much he's going to play the rest of the way.

If he's hurt from here on out, I think the race becomes a lot more wide open.
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Postby activechamp2006 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:26 pm

Madison wrote:For me, MVP has always stood for Most Valuable Player. It doesn't state anywhere that the award is the most valuable player to his particular team, it's the most valuable player period. Thomas? Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with the MVP award as his stat line is definitely less than impressive.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player, it's Ortiz.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.


i agree thomas shouldnt be mentioned in mvp talks.. if he played the whole season he would most likely be there.. but to say dye is more valuable to his team then thomas is crazy talk.. i think crede,konerko, and thome are all equal to dye in how much they mean to the sox. they just have way 2 much good hitting.. as for the a's they have thomas who has just been great ever since his first month, and swisher who has fallen off the face of the earth.. i really dont see how dye is more valuable then thomas? the sox would be just as good without dye, someone else would have stepped up..
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Postby Philly Pride » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:01 pm

Thomas is the most valuable to the Athletics in my opinion, since Chavez and Crosby forgot how to hit and he's been the best real offensive threat in Oakland. Is Thomas more valuable to the A's then, say, Ortiz or Manny is to the Red Sox? Maybe, but because they put up the bigger numbers, they'll get the consideration.
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:04 pm

noseeum wrote:
Madison wrote:For me, MVP has always stood for Most Valuable Player. It doesn't state anywhere that the award is the most valuable player to his particular team, it's the most valuable player period. Thomas? Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with the MVP award as his stat line is definitely less than impressive.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player, it's Ortiz.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.


I think it's too early to say Oritz, considering we don't know how much he's going to play the rest of the way.

If he's hurt from here on out, I think the race becomes a lot more wide open.


True, if he stays hurt. At present, right this moment, Ortiz is the MVP. Just as a note, I've never owned Ortiz and I'm not a Sox fan, so it's not a bias thing either.
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:17 pm

activechamp2006 wrote:
Madison wrote:For me, MVP has always stood for Most Valuable Player. It doesn't state anywhere that the award is the most valuable player to his particular team, it's the most valuable player period. Thomas? Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with the MVP award as his stat line is definitely less than impressive.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player, it's Ortiz.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.


i agree thomas shouldnt be mentioned in mvp talks.. if he played the whole season he would most likely be there.. but to say dye is more valuable to his team then thomas is crazy talk.. i think crede,konerko, and thome are all equal to dye in how much they mean to the sox. they just have way 2 much good hitting.. as for the a's they have thomas who has just been great ever since his first month, and swisher who has fallen off the face of the earth.. i really dont see how dye is more valuable then thomas? the sox would be just as good without dye, someone else would have stepped up..


You quoted my post, but must not have read it. :-?

Where does the MVP state Most Valuable to their team? MVP stands for Most Valuable Player. Period. I have never seen it in writing on the award that X player was the most valuable player to their respective team, it's simply the Most Valuable Player award.

In other words, who's numbers would you want on your team out of the entire American League? Dye's numbers are exceptionally more valuable than Frank's. Has nothing to do with how valuable they are to the team. Bring the team into it, as far as value to the team, and all of a sudden Jeter's "calm eyes" ;-7 make him a bigger factor in the voting.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. It's not named the MVPTHT (most valuable player to his team) award.
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Re: ..

Postby AdvRider » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:34 pm

BxBombers951 wrote:
Frappy wrote:Why no Thome for AL Comeback player of the year? Am I missing something here?


no, i think everyone else is missing something here. thome definatly deserves the CPOTY award over hurt. hell i think magglio should get it before frank.


Mags before Hurt? No way. :-b How can you give CPOTY to a player whose BA has declined from last year? ... as Magglio's has. He doesn't even belong on the ballot.

Thomas
2005: 105 AB 19 12 26 .219
2006: 359 AB 58 28 78 .265

Ordonez
2005: 305 AB 38 8 46 .302
2006: 482 AB 64 17 84 .288

If all stays on pace, it's gotta go to Thome. Hurt's a close runner up, and Lowell has made a decent case for the bronze. Can't think of any other AL candidates...

Lowell
2005: 500 AB 56 8 58 .236
2006: 464 AB 63 15 62 .287
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Postby BTOWNHESS » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:36 am

Comeback player of the year is going to Thome, outside shot of Morneau getting it...End of story...Frank Thomas, Mags or Lowell even being considered with Thome and Morneau is a joke..


Frank Thomas is having an average year for an AL DH, you people are making a big deal about it because he plays for the offesnively inept A's...The A's are in 1st because they are in the top 7 for fielding pct. and Team ERA, not because of the pedestrian numbers of Big Hurt.
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Postby davidmarver » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:30 am

Madison wrote:True, if he stays hurt. At present, right this moment, Ortiz is the MVP. Just as a note, I've never owned Ortiz and I'm not a Sox fan, so it's not a bias thing either.

While I agree with you about MVP being independent from team, I don't think Ortiz can be MVP. He's not even the best at his "position", DH. Travis Hafner's numbers completely blow Ortiz' out of the water:

<pre> RC .AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS
Hafner 120 .307 .434 .643 1.077
Ortiz 105 .287 .400 .633 1.033</pre>

Hafner has driven in 19.95% (74 of 371) of the runners that have been on for him.
Ortiz has driven in 17.13% (74 of 432) of the runners that have been on for him.

All this while Hafner bats in a pitchers park, Ortiz in a hitters park, with Manny Ramirez as his protection.

If Ortiz isn't the most valuable at his own position, how can he be league MVP?
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Postby activechamp2006 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:48 pm

Madison wrote:
activechamp2006 wrote:
Madison wrote:For me, MVP has always stood for Most Valuable Player. It doesn't state anywhere that the award is the most valuable player to his particular team, it's the most valuable player period. Thomas? Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with the MVP award as his stat line is definitely less than impressive.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player, it's Ortiz.

If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.


i agree thomas shouldnt be mentioned in mvp talks.. if he played the whole season he would most likely be there.. but to say dye is more valuable to his team then thomas is crazy talk.. i think crede,konerko, and thome are all equal to dye in how much they mean to the sox. they just have way 2 much good hitting.. as for the a's they have thomas who has just been great ever since his first month, and swisher who has fallen off the face of the earth.. i really dont see how dye is more valuable then thomas? the sox would be just as good without dye, someone else would have stepped up..


You quoted my post, but must not have read it. :-?

Where does the MVP state Most Valuable to their team? MVP stands for Most Valuable Player. Period. I have never seen it in writing on the award that X player was the most valuable player to their respective team, it's simply the Most Valuable Player award.

In other words, who's numbers would you want on your team out of the entire American League? Dye's numbers are exceptionally more valuable than Frank's. Has nothing to do with how valuable they are to the team. Bring the team into it, as far as value to the team, and all of a sudden Jeter's "calm eyes" ;-7 make him a bigger factor in the voting.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. It's not named the MVPTHT (most valuable player to his team) award.


i think you kind of forget to read the rest of your own post 2.. :-?

[/quote]If we're talking Most Valuable Player to their respective team, that's a bit tougher, but I'm leaning towards Dye at the moment.[/quote]

thomas doesnt have better stats then dye, but he means more 2 his team when he plays is the point im bringing up.
jeter deserves some condsideration, but his team is always so stacked.. so he automatically gets taken out of the running for the mvp of their respective team.. thomas means more to the a's then jeter does to the yanks.. if jeter got traded the yanks would end up bringing in tejada or something, so no big loss..
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Postby Madison » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:26 pm

davidmarver wrote:
Madison wrote:True, if he stays hurt. At present, right this moment, Ortiz is the MVP. Just as a note, I've never owned Ortiz and I'm not a Sox fan, so it's not a bias thing either.

While I agree with you about MVP being independent from team, I don't think Ortiz can be MVP. He's not even the best at his "position", DH. Travis Hafner's numbers completely blow Ortiz' out of the water:

<pre> RC .AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS
Hafner 120 .307 .434 .643 1.077
Ortiz 105 .287 .400 .633 1.033</pre>

Hafner has driven in 19.95% (74 of 371) of the runners that have been on for him.
Ortiz has driven in 17.13% (74 of 432) of the runners that have been on for him.

All this while Hafner bats in a pitchers park, Ortiz in a hitters park, with Manny Ramirez as his protection.

If Ortiz isn't the most valuable at his own position, how can he be league MVP?


I didn't forget Hafner, and you make solid points on why he should be considered. Tack on the additional .21 in batting average, and your case gets even stronger. ;-) Some of us old fuddy duddys still look at the normal basic numbers on top of everything else. ;-)

Don't ask me why, but since Hafner hadn't hit #40 at the time of my post, I didn't really look too deeply at him. All those grand slams helps his numbers quite a bit though. ;-)

Anyway, no argument here, especially now that Hafner did hit #40. Guess it will just have to wait and see how both finish up the season. Still plenty of games left to change opinions. ;-)

activechamp2006 wrote:thomas doesnt have better stats then dye, but he means more 2 his team when he plays is the point im bringing up.
jeter deserves some condsideration, but his team is always so stacked.. so he automatically gets taken out of the running for the mvp of their respective team.. thomas means more to the a's then jeter does to the yanks.. if jeter got traded the yanks would end up bringing in tejada or something, so no big loss..


Ah ok, I get you now. Your post was a little jumbled so I figured you were actually talking about the MVP award. If we're just talking about guys who are valuable to their team (meaning no award), I'll still stick with Dye. Not that Thomas hasn't been valuable to the A's, because he has been, it's just the differential in raw numbers is too different from Dye to Thomas for me to give a whole lot of value to Big Hurt.
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Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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