You cant say Papelbon isnt the best this year because he has blown 6 saves already. Thats an ignorant statement considering the situations hes been put into. Hes given up 3 HR and they have all been solo shots when hes protecting a 1 run lead. Give him a 2 run lead in all three of those games and hed convert the saves. He blew one to Texas when he came in in the 8th with a runner on third with 2 outs and gave on one base hit. In the series with the yankees, Francona decided to bring him in with the bases loaded and no outs protecting a two run lead in the 9th. He got out of the inning, and a Javy Lopez blunder lead to a wild pitch (Im pretty sure). Which led to the BS. The reason he is brought into the games in that situation is because of how untouchable he has been this year. How many times during Gagne's record breaking season did he come into the game with the bases loaded in the 8th to protect a 1-2 run lead. I bet not many, Francona uses Papelbon in situations where he needs to get out of a jam. For the most part hes been very succesful. Hes far and away the ERA leader and WHIP leader, 2 less saves than the leader, which is more the Sox fault for how terrible they have become. And is in the top 5 or so in SO's. Considering how low he was drafted easily makes him the best fantasy closer and his numbers make him the best real life closer.
This year the top 3 have got to be
1. Pap
2. Nathan
3. Ryan/Rivera
As far as the best closer of all time. It is easily Rivera. In terms of Regular season performance its a wash. But Rivera owns in the postseason. 34 1/3 consecutive scoreless innings and 23 straight saves in the playoffs says it all.
I bet if you asked Hoffman who the best closer all time was, he would say Rivera.
disgruntledjetsfan wrote:mariano has blown 3 saves this year and is the best closer in baseball. enuff said.
...spoken like a true Yankees fan.
I quoted this post because, well, I can, but I will agree in 1 sense. Rivera isn't the best fantasy closer out there right now. That said, if I can expand this, is there 1 closer that you would rather have out there if you need to close out a big game?? 1 game. Who do you choose?? If anyone chooses any closer not named Rivera, they are crazy.
This year I take Ryan or Nathan. Rivera and Hoffman have been dominant the last 10+ years, but in these playoffs, I would want Ryan or Nathan on the mound for me, not Hoffman or Rivera.
Lofunzo wrote:Does the extra 100 IP in the postseason not matter?? Bring out all of the cats that you want. Hoffman needs another 100 IP of meaningful work.
Because regular season games don't matter? Trevor has thrown more innings in his career as a closer than Mariano. What is the point you are trying to make here?
I am trying to point out that, although both are top closers over their career, Hoffman's postseason stats can be seen as worse than the regular season while Rivera's are clearly better, even with all of the failures that you keep pointing out.
davidmarver wrote:Like I said, though, no need to re-hash the Rivera/Hoffman debate. It'll just end with (Yankee fan) name-calling and (Yankee fan) stubborn-ness...again.
That's not really fair because it takes 2 to tango. You act like you aren't "stubborn" in all of this. Rivera has failed because he's human.
No need to dig-up the never-ending argument that is the H.O.F.fman/Rivera debate: some people are too stubborn to acknowledge Rivera's shortcomings.
And some people are too stubborn to realize Hoffman's.
I vote for Nathan: of his 2 blown saves he got the win in one and his team won in the other. Nathan has a remarkable K to BB number and his ERA and WHIP as well as .BAA are miniscule. When Nathan enters with a lead the twins are around 40-0. If Nathan had more save opps he'd be the number #1 fantasy guy over paps. However, We're talking about in reality and you cant just take a guy over another because he has more saves than the other. Todd Jones anyone?
Anyway, for me Nathan takes the #1 Fantasy and Reality Closer this year.
Lofunzo wrote:I am trying to point out that, although both are top closers over their career, Hoffman's postseason stats can be seen as worse than the regular season while Rivera's are clearly better, even with all of the failures that you keep pointing out.
I know, and I'm telling you that when you combine the two (regular season, postseason) Hoffman's save/close % is still 1+% better than Rivera's.
Lofunzo wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Like I said, though, no need to re-hash the Rivera/Hoffman debate. It'll just end with (Yankee fan) name-calling and (Yankee fan) stubborn-ness...again.
That's not really fair because it takes 2 to tango. You act like you aren't "stubborn" in all of this. Rivera has failed because he's human.
No, Rivera has failed because he has a 11-12% chance of failing, going off the statistics compiled over the entirety of his career.
Lofunzo wrote:
No need to dig-up the never-ending argument that is the H.O.F.fman/Rivera debate: some people are too stubborn to acknowledge Rivera's shortcomings.
And some people are too stubborn to realize Hoffman's.
Lol. You go back through this thread and find the first instance in which someone mentioned Hoffman's shortcomings. It was me. I was the first to mention Hoffman's World Series shortcoming -- against one of the best team's ever -- while you wrote off Rivera's debacle in the 2001 World Series to "a broken bat single".
Let me break this down further Lo. We were asked to choose a closer to close one game. You chose Rivera...I chose Hoffman. My team will close those games 1+% of the time more often. I acknowledge Hoffman's shortcomings in the postseason, you fail to accept that Rivera has cost the Yankees two World Series since 2001. You tell me who's being stubborn.
Rivera cost the Yankees 2 WS?...must have missed those.
Lets see in 2001 his own error started the Game 7 9th inning mess. Brosius not throwing to first for a DP compounded it. Torre not playing for a DP and pulling the infield in finsihed it off for a bloop single...yeah he really cost us that series. I guess the team hitting NOTHING against RJ (as usual) had nothing to so with it too.
2004...He blows one save in a situation you realistically could not expect him to hold the lead...and blows another lead both due largely to Torre's complete and totally inept use of his bullpen the entire series. The whole team did not hit diddly Games 4-7 when it mattered, led by the choking so-called MVP and you want to blame Rivera?...OK if it makes you happy.
Rivera has a lifetime post-season record of
17-7 with a 0.81 ERA and 34 saves. Pick on the couple he blew...right?
He has a regular season record of entering 2006 of
54-35 with a 2.33 ERA and 379 Saves playing for top contending teams in NY in the AL-East.
Hoffman has been pretty lousy in the post-season and has played most of his career saving meaningless games for non-contending Padre teams.
He is 2-3 in the post-season with a 3.75 ERA and that is not only against the Yanks in the 98 WS.
He is 49-53 lifetime going into 2006 with 436 saves and a 2.76 ERA.
Lofunzo wrote:I am trying to point out that, although both are top closers over their career, Hoffman's postseason stats can be seen as worse than the regular season while Rivera's are clearly better, even with all of the failures that you keep pointing out.
I know, and I'm telling you that when you combine the two (regular season, postseason) Hoffman's save/close % is still 1+% better than Rivera's.
Lofunzo wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Like I said, though, no need to re-hash the Rivera/Hoffman debate. It'll just end with (Yankee fan) name-calling and (Yankee fan) stubborn-ness...again.
That's not really fair because it takes 2 to tango. You act like you aren't "stubborn" in all of this. Rivera has failed because he's human.
No, Rivera has failed because he has a 11-12% chance of failing, going off the statistics compiled over the entirety of his career.
Lofunzo wrote:
No need to dig-up the never-ending argument that is the H.O.F.fman/Rivera debate: some people are too stubborn to acknowledge Rivera's shortcomings.
And some people are too stubborn to realize Hoffman's.
Lol. You go back through this thread and find the first instance in which someone mentioned Hoffman's shortcomings. It was me. I was the first to mention Hoffman's World Series shortcoming -- against one of the best team's ever -- while you wrote off Rivera's debacle in the 2001 World Series to "a broken bat single".
Let me break this down further Lo. We were asked to choose a closer to close one game. You chose Rivera...I chose Hoffman. My team will close those games 1+% of the time more often. I acknowledge Hoffman's shortcomings in the postseason, you fail to accept that Rivera has cost the Yankees two World Series since 2001. You tell me who's being stubborn.
Still using save percentage to back up your claim and discounting Rivera's postseason stats???
Lofunzo wrote:I am trying to point out that, although both are top closers over their career, Hoffman's postseason stats can be seen as worse than the regular season while Rivera's are clearly better, even with all of the failures that you keep pointing out.
I know, and I'm telling you that when you combine the two (regular season, postseason) Hoffman's save/close % is still 1+% better than Rivera's.
Lofunzo wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Like I said, though, no need to re-hash the Rivera/Hoffman debate. It'll just end with (Yankee fan) name-calling and (Yankee fan) stubborn-ness...again.
That's not really fair because it takes 2 to tango. You act like you aren't "stubborn" in all of this. Rivera has failed because he's human.
No, Rivera has failed because he has a 11-12% chance of failing, going off the statistics compiled over the entirety of his career.
Lofunzo wrote:
No need to dig-up the never-ending argument that is the H.O.F.fman/Rivera debate: some people are too stubborn to acknowledge Rivera's shortcomings.
And some people are too stubborn to realize Hoffman's.
Lol. You go back through this thread and find the first instance in which someone mentioned Hoffman's shortcomings. It was me. I was the first to mention Hoffman's World Series shortcoming -- against one of the best team's ever -- while you wrote off Rivera's debacle in the 2001 World Series to "a broken bat single".
Let me break this down further Lo. We were asked to choose a closer to close one game. You chose Rivera...I chose Hoffman. My team will close those games 1+% of the time more often. I acknowledge Hoffman's shortcomings in the postseason, you fail to accept that Rivera has cost the Yankees two World Series since 2001. You tell me who's being stubborn.
Marver, you're basing your argument on a 1% difference? That's ridiculous. That's likely statistically insignificant. That essentially means they're equal and the stat should be ignored, leaving you to have to move on to other areas of comparison. Whereas if you look at postseason performance the moat between the two is huge. Rivera towers over Hoffman.
You're simply goading. Hoffman is a stud, no question, but to even pretend he's better than Rivera is a joke.
Mod's, can we add "no pretendin' Hoffman is better than Rivera" to the "No spittin', no swearin'," line?
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by gfantasy » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:35 am 
