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Andrew Miller or Phillip Hughes?

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Postby rmande09 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:22 pm

SS, this is the problem: you always like to fight against the majority just for Edited for language :-t giggles. Enough conclusive evidence? Well, I just provided it to you. Miller has massive control issues and tends to give up a lot of fly balls on his four-seamer. Pitchers who can bring it and tend to give up fly balls give up home runs. Beyond that, Miller only has two pitches and his control is average on one, his fastball, and below average on his second, his slider. He has all the makings to be an ace, but he still has a ways to go to get there. Master his command of his two pitches now, which could easily become PLUS pitches, and then develop a third pitch, hopefully his change. He probably WILL be effective out of the 'pen this season (and I'm certain you'll be sure to overrate him BIG TIME) simply because he throws anywhere from 95-98 out of the 'pen and his slider is filthy, even though it ends up all over the place. He only needs two pitches as a reliever.

On the other hand, there is Hughes, who gives you prettt much everything you could ask for. He's 20 and has some of the best control in the minors. A sub-2.2 BB/9 is just out of this world for a 20 year old in AA. He combines the best part of a finesse pitcher (control) with the best part of a power pitcher (power stuff). He has two PLUS pitches in his fastball and curveball and can throw both for a strike whenever the hell he wants. He has a change that is above average and is a downer, which basically means it has no tilt in either directions which gives him the ability to throw to both righties and lefties. It's not as good, in terms of stuff, as his 1 and 2, but he can throw it consistently. He also has a slider, which is average, but it can be used as a show-me pitch and again, he is very consistent with it. So he has four pitches he can throw over the plate whenever he needs to. He also keeps balls on the ground, which, as a power prospect, is a very rare and VERY GOOD thing.

You could throw Hughes into the Bigs right now and he would be successful, moreso than guys like Hirsh and Garza. He brings consistency, excellent stuff, great composure, and great control to the table at just 20 years old. I'm a Sox fan through and through, and it hurts me to say this, but in 3 or 4 years, this kid could be one of the better pitchers in the league, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a top 5 starter in 5 years.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby hybrid » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:22 pm

For every Weaver/Verlander there are more guys that have injuries, take longer, or never even develope like most think they would of. You can look at the same draft they were taken from and see Niemann, a case where injury has taken it's toll. Even though he is coming back now, he has that injury history and for a guy who was considered very close to a finished prospect ... it's taken him longer because of injuries. The point being Hughes is about as good as you can have for a pitching prospect. Miller could be as good as him, but it's unknown ... so why gamble on the pitcher who has proven nothing above college ball?
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Postby shortsavage » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:25 am

rmande09 wrote:SS, this is the problem: you always like to fight against the majority just for Edited for language :-t and giggles. Enough conclusive evidence? Well, I just provided it to you. Miller has massive control issues and tends to give up a lot of fly balls on his four-seamer. Pitchers who can bring it and tend to give up fly balls give up home runs. Beyond that, Miller only has two pitches and his control is average on one, his fastball, and below average on his second, his slider. He has all the makings to be an ace, but he still has a ways to go to get there. Master his command of his two pitches now, which could easily become PLUS pitches, and then develop a third pitch, hopefully his change. He probably WILL be effective out of the 'pen this season (and I'm certain you'll be sure to overrate him BIG TIME) simply because he throws anywhere from 95-98 out of the 'pen and his slider is filthy, even though it ends up all over the place. He only needs two pitches as a reliever.

On the other hand, there is Hughes, who gives you prettt much everything you could ask for. He's 20 and has some of the best control in the minors. A sub-2.2 BB/9 is just out of this world for a 20 year old in AA. He combines the best part of a finesse pitcher (control) with the best part of a power pitcher (power stuff). He has two PLUS pitches in his fastball and curveball and can throw both for a strike whenever the hell he wants. He has a change that is above average and is a downer, which basically means it has no tilt in either directions which gives him the ability to throw to both righties and lefties. It's not as good, in terms of stuff, as his 1 and 2, but he can throw it consistently. He also has a slider, which is average, but it can be used as a show-me pitch and again, he is very consistent with it. So he has four pitches he can throw over the plate whenever he needs to. He also keeps balls on the ground, which, as a power prospect, is a very rare and VERY GOOD thing.

You could throw Hughes into the Bigs right now and he would be successful, moreso than guys like Hirsh and Garza. He brings consistency, excellent stuff, great composure, and great control to the table at just 20 years old. I'm a Sox fan through and through, and it hurts me to say this, but in 3 or 4 years, this kid could be one of the better pitchers in the league, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a top 5 starter in 5 years.


Hummmm, I'm not trying to go against the grain for fun. Proclaiming that and saying I will try to overrate him big time this September are pretty brash assumptions.
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Postby rmande09 » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:25 am

shortsavage wrote:Hummmm, I'm not trying to go against the grain for fun. Proclaiming that and saying I will try to overrate him big time this September are pretty brash assumptions.


That's not a brash assumption, considering a few facts. First, you admitted you tended to rank this class a little high because you got a bit too "excited" about them. Second, you made a post arguing Longoria at #1, or at least in the top few spots, which, again, shows your willingness to overrate these recent draftees who have performed well in limited time. Then you compared Travis Snider to Jay Bruce, saying Snider was the best HS bat in this class and Bruce was only the third best HS bat in last class, and in your "top 50," you had about 8 or 9 guys from this class ranked in the top 30, including about 5 or 6 pitchers. The only guys that belong in the top 30 from this class are Longoria, An. Miller, and possibly Kershaw. You have clearly shown (and admitted) your tendency to overvalue this draft class.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby raiders_umpire » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:24 pm

Watch the language rmande.


No spittin', no swearin', no instigatin'...
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Postby rmande09 » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:55 pm

Woops, sorry raiders. Forgot this was a place I'm not allowed to use the language :-/ Won't happen again.
C: Pierzynski
1B: Pujols
2B: Altuve
3B: Miggy
SS: HanRam
OF (x3): CarGo, M. Bourn, D. Jennings
UTIL (x2): E. Encarnacion, C. Hart
BN: Cuddyer, C. Ross, J. Montero

SP: Price, Gallardo, T. Hudson, Lester
RP: Chapman, Jansen, Rodney, Putz, Cishek, Bailey
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Postby shortsavage » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:39 pm

rmande09 wrote:You have clearly shown (and admitted) your tendency to overvalue this draft class.


"The 2006 Draft was generally seen as a weak one going into June, as only the group of college pitchers really garnered any excitement from the scouting community.

However, the performances of this year's first-round selections have many people already wondering if the talent level was underrated, particularly among the offensive players.

This group is nowhere near the 2005 parade of future stars, but it's also far from the 2000 nightmare that some projected going in." - Kevin Goldstein, Baseball Prospectus
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