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Is Santana the clear cut Cy Young winner?

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Postby superfly » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:14 am

Laean wrote:i'm pretty sure when your strategy is to get groundballs instead of strikes, you're going to end up giving up more some hits, so no a lower BAA is very not relevant in evaluating whether or not you're a more effective starting pitcher than another pitcher who happens to be a strikeout pitcher.


I'm not sure what your definition of an effective starting pitcher is but giving up less hits would be a pretty big factor for me. Apparently not for you.
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Postby DK » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:23 am

superfly wrote:
Laean wrote:i'm pretty sure when your strategy is to get groundballs instead of strikes, you're going to end up giving up more some hits, so no a lower BAA is very not relevant in evaluating whether or not you're a more effective starting pitcher than another pitcher who happens to be a strikeout pitcher.


I'm not sure what your definition of an effective starting pitcher is but giving up less hits would be a pretty big factor for me. Apparently not for you.


It can matter but not as much as people think. If you're a killer groundball pitcher with elite control, you're basically taking away the extra-base hit and the free pass. You do that, it'll take a lot of singles and stolen bases to beat you.
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Postby mikekim2121 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:29 am

I think a better way of stating the weight of BAA is to say while it is still a fairly good way of analyzing their effectiveness, its CERTAINLY not an end all be all statistic.
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Postby DK » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:41 am

mikekim2121 wrote:I think a better way of stating the weight of BAA is to say while it is still a fairly good way of analyzing their effectiveness, its CERTAINLY not an end all be all statistic.


It's not even fairly good because it fails to take into account other ways of getting on base, or extra-base hits.

OBA and SLGA are much better ways of figuring out a pitcher's effectiveness... Now if there was only some way we could put OBP and SLG together... :D
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Postby mikekim2121 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:48 am

So you think the fact that Santana has a .215 BAA is nothing more than a fluke with no correlation to his real performance?
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Postby DK » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:55 am

mikekim2121 wrote:So you think the fact that Santana has a .215 BAA is nothing more than a fluke with no correlation to his real performance?


Who said it was a fluke? :-? All I'm saying is that you can be an effective pitcher even with a high BA, like Tommy John for example. You just have to be really good at everything else.

I think his .215 BAA is the result of his fantastic performance in other aspects (K/9, great control, low HR/9, low XBH allowed) than the cause of it.
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Postby ScrappyDoo » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:30 am

ESPN's player rater which takes into account how well a player does compared to league average has Santana at 10.12. Soriano is the next highest at 7.70. Halladay is at 5.75 for 8th overall.

Santana is as good as they get in all categories, except saves obviously. His ratios lead the league (which combined with his high IP can drastically lower your ratios in a roto league) combined with his high W's and and MLB leading K's. Not to mention his durablilty and consistency over the last few years.

Its hard to make a case that he ISNT a top 5 pick.

That said, hes a no brainer for the Cy.

Halladay has had a great season, but last time I checked he was in the Cy Young race against Santana in the second half in which Santana historically and recently has been pitching out of his mind.
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Postby activechamp2006 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:17 pm

mweir145 wrote:
kingctb27 wrote:

Johan has just been a little bit better and has pulled away in this race with a few amazing starts while Halladay was getting incredibly unlucky. It's no knock on Doc.


santana really isnt just "a little" better.. the strikeout difference between the two is huge, santana is a dominant and feared pitcher.. while halladay is just another guy who seems to put together wins and pitches by getting batters to groundout.. hes a good pitcher yes, but no where near santanas league.. and you should have expected a huge 2nd half from johan, he does it every year ;-D
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Postby pokerplaya » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:22 pm

Santana is clearly the cream of the crop in the ML, but Halladay is a great great pitcher and nothing should be taken away from him. He is one of the top 5 pitchers in the majors, IMO.
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Postby BxBombers951 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:52 pm

Lime wrote:Halladay is the Cy Young for anyone who understands baseball.


this wouldnt have anything to do with you being from ontario canada would it?
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