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Is Santana the clear cut Cy Young winner?

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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:58 pm

Lime wrote:
giants! wrote:Santana has a better era than Halladay, a higher whip, a better k/bb ratio, almost 90 more strikeouts, one less win, a better PRC(Pitching Runs Created), a better FIP ( Fielding Independant ERA), and one more win share than Halladay. I can't even find one statistic which shows why Halladay is a better pitcher.


A 3.18 ERA pitching in the AL East is a much greater feat than a 3.03 ERA pitching in the AL Central.

A 1.10 WHIP pitching in the AL East is a much greater feat than a 1.03 WHIP pitching in the AL Central.

Records. Halladay is 16-3. Santana is 15-5.

Greater feat?

Quality of batters faced

Santana .781 ops
Halladay .770 ops

Santana has faced tougher hitters, so by your way of thinking, Santana then becomes the slam dunk winner.

If this was fantasy baseball, Santana is #1. In the real world, Santana is better in one aspect over Doc and one aspect only, strikeouts.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:00 pm

Quality of batters faced.

Santana .781 ops
Halladay .770 ops

Santana has faced better hitters.
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Postby ARCH » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:21 pm

A difference of .11 in OPS has minimal meaning in deciding who facers better hitters. Possibly as many as 8 of the best 10 hitters in the AL play in the AL East and IMO none of these play for Toronto. Santana has faced the Yankees and Boston just once this season and beaten neither of them. Halladay has faced them far more often and has never lost to them.

The only time Halladay and Santana have pitched against each other in 2006, Halladay won comfortably.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:31 pm

ARCH wrote:A difference of .11 in OPS has minimal meaning in deciding who facers better hitters. Possibly as many as 8 of the best 10 hitters in the AL play in the AL East and IMO none of these play for Toronto. Santana has faced the Yankees and Boston just once this season and beaten neither of them. Halladay has faced them far more often and has never lost to them.


It does have mimimal meaning, but it PROVES that Halladay has not faced better hitters.

For the record, against Boston/NY this year

Santana 3.14 era
Halladay 3.48 era
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Postby giants! » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:32 pm

ARCH wrote:A difference of .11 in OPS has minimal meaning in deciding who facers better hitters. Possibly as many as 8 of the best 10 hitters in the AL play in the AL East and IMO none of these play for Toronto. Santana has faced the Yankees and Boston just once this season and beaten neither of them. Halladay has faced them far more often and has never lost to them.

The only time Halladay and Santana have pitched against each other in 2006, Halladay won comfortably.


You are missing the point. Saying Halladay's lesser numbers are more impressive than Santana's better numbers is foolish according ot the data Hootie presented. I have still yet to see a stat other than Wins where Halladay is superior.
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Postby ARCH » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:36 pm

Hootie, how does that prove Halladay has not faced better hitters?
And to use ERA against the Red Sox and Yankees has less meaning than your .11 OPS difference.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:43 pm

ARCH wrote:Hootie, how does that prove Halladay has not faced better hitters?
And to use ERA against the Red Sox and Yankees has less meaning than your .11 OPS difference.


You were saying how Santana has not beaten Boston/NY, yet are saying how Halladay has beaten them. Santana has pitched better, but got less run support in those games.

Santana has faced batters with a +.11 higher ops. That's not facing better hitters? One thing is easily clear, Halladay has not faced better hitters. It's a moot point to me in voting, but just stating it since it's being thrown around Halladay has it tougher.
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Postby DSpec » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:41 pm

Even though I'm a Jays fan, I gotta say it's Santana right now. He's been better than Halladay in almost every stat except for the wins. They both pitch in tough divisions but don't count Halladay out. If he finishes with 2 or 3 more wins than Santana and keeps his stats around the same then he might have a shot at it.
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Postby Zito is God » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:58 pm

I am a Hallday owner and I see Santana winning it if the season ended today. I believe Halladay (for whatever reason) lost his K ability and that greatly limits his overall potential in ERA and WHIP as well as the K category. Halladay will need at least 3 more wins then Santana to take it from him IMO.
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Postby ARCH » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:02 pm

Halladay has lost his K ability 8-o
And that makes him any less of a pitcher :-?

Why don't we include Daniel Cabrera in that Cy voting, his K/9 is sensational ;-7
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