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Postby perlick29 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:53 am

The Miner Part 2 wrote:here's a link to the mass transit incident... jesus, that's all i can say.. 8-o

http://us.share.geocities.com/gronchowrestling10/Mass_Transit.mpeg


Thank goodness the link didn't work. It's too gruesome for people to be looking at. Poor, stupid kid.
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:29 pm

perlick29 wrote:
The Miner Part 2 wrote:here's a link to the mass transit incident... jesus, that's all i can say.. 8-o

http://us.share.geocities.com/gronchowrestling10/Mass_Transit.mpeg


Thank goodness the link didn't work. It's too gruesome for people to be looking at. Poor, stupid kid.


Mass Transit passed away a few years back, but as far as I know, it had nothing to do with that incident though.

As for Summerslam, it was OK. The match of the night had to go to Foley vs. Flair. Intense match with all the barbed wire and thumbtacks. It's kind of interesting to see Flair as a hardcore spot artist of sorts with his past match vs. Big Show on ECW and now Foley at SS. This was the type of action Flair berated Foley on in the past. I loved the idea of making Flair turn psycho. The ending was a letdown of sorts, with Flair about to stoop to a new low and tease at striking on Melina, but I like it for a long run feud between Foley and Flair, probably stretching to Survivor Series.

Chavo/Rey was decent, but personally, it's sort of hard for me to get into the feud because Chavo and Vicki sort of broke kayfabe a few months ago and celebrated with Rey after he won the WWE title at Mania, which seemed like a heartfelt moment.

Show vs. Sabu wasn't bad either, but I don't think it's an issue of Sabu being too small. I've never been a fan of anyone 6' 8" or taller wrestling in any type of match, no matter the gimmick just because a guy like Show slows down the pace of the match in such a way that it's tired and predictable. Sabu is a spot artist. Always was and always will be. He's been known to botch a few spots every now and then, but for the sake of in-ring athleticism, I think Sabu is an asset.

I didn't care much about Hogan vs. Orton. It certainly wasn't as well promoted as Hogan vs. HBK leading into last year's Summerslam and the match won't be mistaken for the 4 or even 5 star match Hogan and HBK put up. Just a formulaic match. I'm glad to see Orton lose in a way just because I tend to think that even the marks are tired of his gimmick and his promos.

Batista vs. Booker, like Hogan and Orton, wasn't well promoted and it seemed that the bookers just slapped this match on the card without much effort put into the progression of the feud. But then again, I think the plan all along was for Batista to feud with old "Sexual Chocolate" Mark Henry, but of course Henry is sidelined with an injury. Smackdown only has two lead faces and those are Rey and Batista; they had to have a face take on Book at SS.

I surely hope this was the blowoff match for the DX/McMahon feud. It was interesting to see Vince throw the kitchen sink and then some at DX with Kennedy, Regal, Finlay, Show, and Umaga making their appearances. It was predictable that Trips and HBK, in formulaic fashion, would go up "against all odds" and get the duke.

Edge and Cena is what you'd expect from the two when you put them together. As a smark who isn't a Cena hater, but otherwise believes Cena is a tiring act, I'm content Edge still has the strap. However, the WWE had a golden opportunity back in January to have Edge hold onto the title heading into Mania, given how refreshing of a heel he is, and ride the ratings. I think Edge, no pun intended, has lost some of his edge in that regard.

All in all, I wasn't expecting much and so I can't say I was disappointed with Summerslam.
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Postby Madison » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:32 pm

The Artful Dodger wrote:Show vs. Sabu wasn't bad either, but I don't think it's an issue of Sabu being too small. I've never been a fan of anyone 6' 8" or taller wrestling in any type of match, no matter the gimmick just because a guy like Show slows down the pace of the match in such a way that it's tired and predictable. Sabu is a spot artist. Always was and always will be. He's been known to botch a few spots every now and then, but for the sake of in-ring athleticism, I think Sabu is an asset.


Guess it all just really depends on what you like about wrestling. While I enjoy watching the blazingly fast paced matches with lots of high spots, wrestling has always been watching big guys do damage to each other to me. I can handle the mid-sized guys duking it out and using a little of both, but I've just never been a fan of the lightweights. Putting a lightweight in there with Show is insane. If it was Khali/Sabu, then at least I'd think Sabu has some sort of chance since Khali is ridiculously slow. Show isn't nearly as slow as Khali, so this match was over before it ever began to me. Not all that great, and went as expected. Had Sabu won (without some sort of eye-poppingly amazing spot), it would have been the Rey as Champion crap all over again for me, and I'd have been quite annoyed with the WWE.

The biggest problem I see at the moment, is I'm not sure who on the ECW roster could actually take the title off of show and make it look halfway convincing. Angle maybe, but they are really lacking in that department. :-?
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Madison wrote:The biggest problem I see at the moment, is I'm not sure who on the ECW roster could actually take the title off of show and make it look halfway convincing. Angle maybe, but they are really lacking in that department. :-?


I think the problem has to do with how the writers and bookers portray a certain wrestler. Much of that can be attributed to Vince being a stickler for husky wrestlers with intimidating physique, who are otherwise aren't as technically gifted as other wrestlers. I agree with you in some ways when it comes to the way they pushed Rey, in that he's being put over as a dimunitve underdog that has gone above and beyond to win the Rumble and eventually capture the World Title at Mania. That idea just seemed cliche. In other instances, I liked how WWE pushed Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit. They were put over based on their credibility as in-ring mat technicians and that places this perception in the back of the mind of the common mark that the likes of Angle and Benoit defeating the likes of Big Show, Mark Henry, or Khali as a credible possibility.

You also have to take into account that most longtime WWE fans were used to the style implemented by the likes of Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior to name a few, and established that style as the WWE norm. Again, WWE usually projects itself to the mark who either believes in the norm of that style or is sucked into a larger-than-life character like The Rock or Stone Cold. Remember that lucha libre in the U.S. didn't really catch on until ECW started featuring it in the mid-90's as a change of pace from the hardcore wrestling it usually featured.

It's difficult in cross-pollinating ECW with WWE wrestlers as well because that also involves mish-mashing the mainstream segment of WWE fans with the ECW Old Faithful and the smark audience. That will cause confusion between WWE fans not used to viewing ECW or the indies of what to make of the product and some discontent on the side of ECW die-hards and/or indie smarks.

I'm on the side of the fence that Vince should let ECW be run as an independent entity. That entails ECW in traditional ECW venues where the traditional ECW fans (some of which happen to be big marks of ROH and TNA) can take in the product much like the old days because ECW is a more crowd-intimate product than WWE is, in terms of setting. This will allow indie talents who would otherwise be undermined by Vince and the WWE bookers, to join in on an ECW product that will keep reinventing itself by building strongly on its loyal foundation of fans while in the same process, bring in that small percentage of pure indie smarks. That means indie household names like Samoa Joe, C.M. Punk, Low Ki, and Bryan Danielson could jell with RVD, Sabu, Kurt Angle, and give another dimension to the ECW product, a change that's more likely to be embraced by even the die-hard ECW fans. Let ECW become more of a viral word-of-mouth product. I think Vince is scared to do this in a way, that ECW could cannibalize his main WWE product in the long run, but I doubt it just because pure smarks, even though the segment is growing thanks to the Internet, make up a tiny minority of the sea of WWE fans.

Vince thinks he can lure the smarks into buying into WWE by incorporating WWE brand names with ECW, but in all actuality, a great deal of smarks tune into WWE anyway and buy PPV's. At the same time, he's turning ECW into nothing more than a label, of what would otherwise be a WWE product. I look at it this way: Big record companies have a portfolio of music labels and even though the lion's share of money comes from pop music, they own independent labels that let heavy metal bands showcase their music, with little or no intervention from the big label. Does keeping a portfolio of different music labels representing different music genres a profitable practice? Not necessarily. But what it does is capture a market segment without mucking around the product, which would otherwise scare the stalwarts of that segment away. That's the way Vince should treat ECW. My two cents. :-D
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Postby Madison » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:41 pm

I actually agree that Vince should let ECW go it's own way. However, he has to something, as the product was losing money prior to being bought by the WWE. Where that happy medium is exactly, I do not know.

There was a possibility that I could have been sold with Sabu beating Show, but as I said before, had there been some sort of eye-popping big spot or something to sell it, there's a slight chance I'd have bought it. Show is not nearly as slow and plodding as some of the big guys. Khali is a great example of the big slow guy. Sabu over Khali? Sure, that I can believe as Khali is incredibly slow, while Sabu is much quicker and uses the big spots. Over Show? Nah. Show is not as quick as Sabu, but he's not so slow that there's a chance he loses the match. Not without some massive bump of some sort anyway.

I have both "markish" and "smarkish" sides, but for me to enjoy most matches, there has to be at least a tad bit of realism involved. Rey as champ was a disgrace as there's no way that could be sold to anyone, and was really done for only one reason (and I'll leave it at that - we both know why). Sabu beating Show would have been a very hard sell, yet possible, but a very hard sell.
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:32 pm

True, Vince has a ton of stockholders to satisfy and thus, that's why I can see the reason why he feels compelled to bring ECW out into the mainstream, showcase it on Smackdown tapings, and kind of maximize whatever return on investment he can squeeze out of it. The lion's share of WWE/ECW shows comes from live attendance after all. But Vince surely has the funds to keep ECW solvent enough for ECW to go back to its minimalist roots. I understand it from a financial or business perspective, but from the product and marketing side of things, it makes better sense for ECW to be run as an independent.

As a smark who endorses more athletic wrestlers, there's this tendency to look the other way when the likes of Big Show wrestle. True, Show is no Kevin Nash, but he's somewhat predictable as most big guys are. That's not to say that Show or Taker can't deliver a top-notch match because both have delivered top-rate matches, especially Taker. Ideally, I'd like to see a wrestling promotion hinge between a hybrid of what ECW once was in the "golden age" of the mid 90's and what Ring Of Honor has established the last four years. Innovative, over-the-top, but gritty storylines and well-paced matches that celebrate the technical and aerialist wrestling aspect of it too.

I have a friend who feels basically the same way as far as a perception of realism goes. He had the perception that a guy like Chris Jericho or Chris Benoit shouldn't be champion if he were to face the likes of Taker or Big Show, based off stature. Guess who else feels the same way? *hint hint* That could be true in some cases, but you can't say for sure, unless they were locked in a legitimate fight. Like I said, some of the perception can come from an individual's innate perception of a wrestler's body image or fighting style, but a lot of the perception of credibility is attributed to how a certain wrestler is booked, but also the in-ring psychology. Now, the indies nor ECW have had the wrestler with the stature Big Show possesses, but it would have been interesting how a guy like Show would be booked in promotions notorious for only having wrestlers, at the tallest, measure in at 6' 2" and are of cruiserweight body type.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:22 pm

Madison wrote:The biggest problem I see at the moment, is I'm not sure who on the ECW roster could actually take the title off of show and make it look halfway convincing. Angle maybe, but they are really lacking in that department. :-?

I think ECW has probably the easiest way of allowing a smaller athletic guy beat a monster like Show. Hardcore Rules. No matter how big you are the use of tables, chairs, any other random thing can become an equalizer and allow the little guy to win.

I think at the moment ECW's biggest problem is they don't have any reliable main eventers besides Show. RVD has been very sloppy lately and he refuses to do anything new. Sabu is a great worker and will work through an injury as long as possible, but eventually they'll catch up to him. Then you have Angle...he's possibly the best wrestler in the WWE, but his neck and various other injury problems just make him to much of a question mark to give the title to. Hopefully they work on making some new talent, because they have the guys to do it.
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:48 pm

1337_Dude wrote:I think at the moment ECW's biggest problem is they don't have any reliable main eventers besides Show. RVD has been very sloppy lately and he refuses to do anything new. Sabu is a great worker and will work through an injury as long as possible, but eventually they'll catch up to him. Then you have Angle...he's possibly the best wrestler in the WWE, but his neck and various other injury problems just make him to much of a question mark to give the title to. Hopefully they work on making some new talent, because they have the guys to do it.


Can you say C.M. Punk? ;-D

Okay, herein lies the problem. ECW's old faithful like RVD, Sabu, Tommy Dreamer, and Sandman, should be there to give a certain authenticity to the revived ECW brand. More or less, they're there to lead the transition from the ECW back in its heyday to an ECW that's more of the strain of what Ring Of Honor brings to the table.

RVD is still main event material. Problem is he's sure not getting any younger and he's under a ton of scrutiny when it comes to his unorthodox style. However, Kurt Angle and Sabu can bring out the best in RVD while back on RAW, he basically had to carry relatively green superstars like Carlito for instance, and that doesn't always come out correctly. Back in ECW, Van Dam put on entertaining matches against Bam Bam Bigelow and Balls Mahoney, two brawlers who are more of the slow, smashmouth type, as JBL would put it. As long as Vince has his fingerprints on the product, RVD won't be utilized correctly. I think that's why over the past few years, RVD's matches have suffered due to a lack of motivation in the ring really.

Kurt Angle and Sabu can only carry the company for so long and I agree with you on that. Both have had a laundry list of injuries, it seems. I think that once Chris Benoit returns to injury, he's a good fit for ECW and heck, I'll even throw Chris Jericho's name out there, but he's going to be on FOX's Duets and trust me, he's no Bruce Dickinson based off his Fozzy albums. :-b

All the up-and-coming talents are either in TNA or ROH in my opinion and it'll be hard for an indie like Samoa Joe, like A.J. Styles (maybe), and Bryan Danielson to adjust to the WWE style. It's a good sign when a guy with the reputation C.M. Punk has in the Indies jumps aboard, but I think Punk is/was the most WWE-ready personality out there.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:50 pm

The Artful Dodger wrote:Can you say C.M. Punk? ;-D

Heh, he was one of the guys I was refering to actually.

The Artful Dodger wrote:RVD is still main event material. Problem is he's sure not getting any younger and he's under a ton of scrutiny when it comes to his unorthodox style. However, Kurt Angle and Sabu can bring out the best in RVD while back on RAW, he basically had to carry relatively green superstars like Carlito for instance, and that doesn't always come out correctly. Back in ECW, Van Dam put on entertaining matches against Bam Bam Bigelow and Balls Mahoney, two brawlers who are more of the slow, smashmouth type, as JBL would put it. As long as Vince has his fingerprints on the product, RVD won't be utilized correctly. I think that's why over the past few years, RVD's matches have suffered due to a lack of motivation in the ring really.

From reading various things, I think this is one of the few places we may differ. I'm not sure at the moment if RVD is ready to step back into the main event scene. His matches are just stale to me anymore. He's like a bit of a high flying Hulk Hogan, he's gonna hit you with the same moves that he's been doing for 10 years now. Just with him it's a little less noticable as they're more exciting. Like you pointed out, he's lost his motivation and that also helps to really drag his matches down. His conditioning doesn't seem to be where it was when he was putting on great matches in ECW.

The Artful Dodger wrote:I think that once Chris Benoit returns to injury, he's a good fit for ECW and heck, I'll even throw Chris Jericho's name out there, but he's going to be on FOX's Duets and trust me, he's no Bruce Dickinson based off his Fozzy albums. :-b

I think Chris Benoit is just the guy they need to put in the main event scene and give the belt to. He's the perfect guy. He's been around long enough that the average fan knows who he is and he'll get respect from the ECW guys, because he was in ECW.

The Artful Dodger wrote:All the up-and-coming talents are either in TNA or ROH in my opinion and it'll be hard for an indie like Samoa Joe, like A.J. Styles (maybe), and Bryan Danielson to adjust to the WWE style. It's a good sign when a guy with the reputation C.M. Punk has in the Indies jumps aboard, but I think Punk is/was the most WWE-ready personality out there.

If I was Vince i'd do everything in my power to try and steal Joe. This guy just has it. He doesn't have the body that Vince likes, but what he has works for him. Outside of Sting and a few of the just crazy moves that some of these guys do, he's about the only thing on that show I care about.

At the moment the best thing I think ECW could do is continue to run a program with Sabu, RVD, and Angle trying to take down Show. Once Benoit is fully healthy get him involved and get the belt around his waste. All the while grooming Punk for the main even scene and when he's there, let those two guys just tear the ring up.

Also to give something for RVD, Sabu, and all the other guys something to do, I wouldn't mind if they brought back the T.V. title. The show could use a mid-even title. This would work great as RVD has a great history with that title.
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:12 am

The Artful Dodger wrote: RVD while back on RAW, he basically had to carry relatively green superstars like Carlito for instance,


Carlito Caribbean Cool wrote:That's not Cool.


:-b
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Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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