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Postby acsguitar » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:12 pm

Coppermine wrote:

My biggest surprise though from Madison is that he's a WWE fan; professional wrestling, to me, is the most ridiculous and, dare I say, dumb forms of entertainment out there. It's absolutely absurd, with the complete and total staged matches with the yelling at each other and overly simplistic plotlines that insult my intelligence. Madison, what do you say to those who claim that wrestling is fake and that it's stupid... probably that it's simply a form of entertainment that you enjoy simply for what it is... yes, it's dumb, yes it's ridiculous, but it's still entertaining. And that's the point of the WWE... entertainment. Not hardcore fighting, competitive sportsmanship and "let the best man win." It's a show, that is incredibly stupid but has found its niche in society where a great many people enjoy it. And for that, I have nothing to argue about... I don't enjoy wrestling, but I can UNDERSTAND why it's popular.



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Postby Madison » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:17 pm

Coppermine wrote:OK, I think I'd like to settle this one. The English language is not very coherent or absolute. There are lot of rules and such that are open to interpretation and exception. I think this is one of them. I don't know of anyone who has ever said they were ever "in" a plane. While you may technically be inside of it, for some reason you're on a plane just as you're "on" a boat.

My Madison's rationale, that is being "on" a boat (open air only) then if you go "on" a cruise, you're really "in" a cruise, because most of your time spent "on" a cruise ship is "in" a cabin. You'd have to change your English every time you talk about it, like, lets say there's a pool outside on the boat. Then you're "in" the pool while "on" the boat. But then you went to see a show while "on" the boat, which technically would make you "in" the boat because most shows that are performed during cruises are inside. It's ridiculous and not worth arguing over. People say "on" a plane and to say "in" a plane would sound far stupider (<--- not a word by the way).


:-b You're way overthinking it. I simply pointed out that "on" a plane isn't correct, not really that big of a deal. Anyone ever been "on" a submarine underwater? Nope. People are "in" submarines underwater. Same difference.

Coppermine wrote:Also, I'm surprised my Madison's logical hatred for this movie, and such is the reason; applying a logical and rational approach to the perceived popularity of this movie already puts you at a disadvantage. This "film" defies logic. Snakes on a Plane is playing into the American zeitgeist of loving bad movies. Titanic was immensely popular and won awards, but that doesn't mean it didn't suck.


For me, there's a difference in dumb yet funny, and just plain dumb. For example the movie Dodgeball was dumb, yet funny, while as Napoleon Dynamite was just plain stupid. I see Snakes as being more of the Napoleon Dynamite variety (just plain dumb) than I do the Dodgeball variety (dumb, yet funny at times).

Oh, and I don't hate the movie. Never seen it, and most likely won't ever see it, so I cannot hate it without seeing it. Just because I think this movie is worthless, and going to make Americans look bad if it does well in the box office, doesn't mean I hate it. Dislike? Sure, I guess you can say that, but "hate" is a very strong word, and one I do not use very often.

Coppermine wrote:My biggest surprise though from Madison is that he's a WWE fan; professional wrestling, to me, is the most ridiculous and, dare I say, dumb forms of entertainment out there. It's absolutely absurd, with the complete and total staged matches with the yelling at each other and overly simplistic plotlines that insult my intelligence. Madison, what do you say to those who claim that wrestling is fake and that it's stupid... probably that it's simply a form of entertainment that you enjoy simply for what it is... yes, it's dumb, yes it's ridiculous, but it's still entertaining. And that's the point of the WWE... entertainment. Not hardcore fighting, competitive sportsmanship and "let the best man win." It's a show, that is incredibly stupid but has found its niche in society where a great many people enjoy it. And for that, I have nothing to argue about... I don't enjoy wrestling, but I can UNDERSTAND why it's popular.


The difference for me is that a lot of these wrestlers put in their blood, sweat, bodies, and tears into the business over 300 days a year. They put on a show for the crowd practically every night of the week. Just because it's only televised a couple of times a week, don't be fooled into thinking they only "work" a couple of months total each year.

Are the match endings predetermined? Yes. Are the matches themselves staged? No. Pretty big difference there. I'll use the Undertaker/Mankind (Mick Foley) Hell in a Cell match as a perfect example, and one that most people have at least heard about. When Taker threw Foley off the top of the cell, no one knew that was coming. No one, not even McMahon (the billionaire owner of the WWE!). It was not planned, it was not staged, it was spur of the moment and it was Foley's spur of the moment idea. Most matches are not scripted, or are very basically scripted for the newbies to the business.

Sometimes personal issues get into the storylines, like the whole thing with Lita being with Matt Hardy, and then cheating on him with Edge. That really happened in real life behind the scenes. The WWE brought it out and turned it into a storyline, but it was reality and there was some major bad blood over it, so you did not know what was going to happen next. Andre the Giant vs Hogan for the very first time? Anyone remember that? Andre refused to lose to Hogan, but McMahon convinced him it was best for the company if Hogan beat him, so Andre agreed to do it. Well, Hogan ended up running his mouth and upsetting Andre so bad that no one knew what was going to happen once they got in the ring, not even McMahon. Brett Hart/Shawn Michaels screwjob? That wasn't a storyline either. That was real life. Hart was leaving, so when Sean got him in the sharpshooter (Submission hold), McMahon ran down, made them ring the bell, and announced that Hart had tapped out (quit). Real life, no storyline. Hart was scripted to win that match! How about the Goldberg/Lesnar bust at Wrestlemania? Goldberg's last WWE match as his contract expired after Wrestlemania, and Brock was leaving after the match to play pro football. Anything could have happened in that match as once the final bell had rung, they were done with the company. Turned out to be a huge bust of a match, but anything, and I do mean anything could have happened right there. Currently there's a Mick Foley/Ric Flair rivalry going, and there's bad blood behind the scenes there too. They fight at the Pay-Per-View Sunday night, and it should be interesting to see what happens since they do not like each other at all. It's not all that unusual to see a real fight, or real punches/kicks thrown due to the bad blood, so sometimes you really don't know what's going to happen.

Toss in the random unscripted injuries, and there's quite a few interesting reasons to watch. I saw Sid Viscious break his fibula and tibula while jumping off the turnbuckle (I have it on tape as a matter of fact). Foot just lopping around at weird angles. I saw Steve Austin get dropped on his head during a piledriver gone wrong, and break his neck. I saw Triple H snap his quad mid-match and fight through the pain to finish the match. Just a few of many, many injuries that are unscripted, yet happen during the matches.

Not to mention the malfunction that caused Owen Hart to no longer be with us. RIP Owen. :,-(

I'm not the type of fan who sits and cheers and boos all the time, but I do watch and enjoy wrestling. There's just a whole lot more to it than non-watchers realize, and it leads to quite a few misconceptions.

Coppermine wrote:Snakes on a Plane is the same thing. It's ridiculous and dumb. It's not supposed to be high art or witty cinema. It's plot and marketing are beyond absurdity and it's playing that angle up to gain support. People want to see this, not because they're dying to know what would happen if snakes were ever on a plane... they just want to see what the hype is about... Samuel L Jackson, one of the most ridiculous actors of our time, in one of the most ridiculously titled and marketed movies in my memory. It's playing into the "it's entertaining because it's ridiculous" market, which as a wrestling fan Madison, you happen to be a part of.


Snakes is totally different than wrestling, as I showed above.

Jackson has done some strange movies, but I wouldn't classify him as the "most ridiculous" actor of our time. He played good and solid roles in several movies such as XXX, Unbreakable, A Time to Kill, Deep Blue Sea, Rules of Engagement, and The Negotiator just off the top of my head.

Anyway, I just see this movie being too stupid to be funny. *Shruggs shoulders*.
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:38 pm

Coppermine wrote:My biggest surprise though from Madison is that he's a WWE fan; professional wrestling, to me, is the most ridiculous and, dare I say, dumb forms of entertainment out there. It's absolutely absurd, with the complete and total staged matches with the yelling at each other and overly simplistic plotlines that insult my intelligence. Madison, what do you say to those who claim that wrestling is fake and that it's stupid... probably that it's simply a form of entertainment that you enjoy simply for what it is... yes, it's dumb, yes it's ridiculous, but it's still entertaining. And that's the point of the WWE... entertainment. Not hardcore fighting, competitive sportsmanship and "let the best man win." It's a show, that is incredibly stupid but has found its niche in society where a great many people enjoy it. And for that, I have nothing to argue about... I don't enjoy wrestling, but I can UNDERSTAND why it's popular.


Pretty much well said, Madison.

First off, I've watched wrestling ever since I was little, but I watch it for different reasons than when I did before. I'm at what they call in the wrestling business, a "smart mark", or a smark for short. That typically means I know what's going on backstage (duh, it's fake, give it a rest) and I watch wrestling not for the storyline aspect typically, but I watch the matches, for the technical and psychological aspect of it. I watch for the intricacies of submission mat wrestling, but also the aerialist lucha libre and Puroresu styles too. Sure, I'll take in a gory hardcore deathmatch with electric barbed wire, tables, and C4 exploding steel cages, but I watch it for the story that's being told in the ring and also out of respect for the sacrifice these wrestlers take in entertaining a crowd. There's much more to the pro wrestling phenomenon than watching Vince McMahon's Freak Circus.

You can't say "wrestling" is stupid when all you see on TV is World Wrestling ENTERTAINMENT, and I'll be the first to tell you that Vince McMahon is a nutjob. He's sort of taken an outlandish spin on WWE and somehow made it mainstream by touring U.S. and Canada week by week. Watch what the independents have done, as in ECW, TNA, Ring Of Honor, New Japan, NOAH, and FMW to name a few and they added substance to the in-ring product.

Sure, ECW had its controversial moments, storylines that were too gritty for cable TV, and its abrasive fan base, but it did feature technical wrestling. It paved the way for Mexican lucha libre luchadores to gain more credibility in the American form of wrestling. You watch the series of the late Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko matches and they were classics. You look at what TNA and ROH have done. They've taken some purely proficient in-ring performers: a submission stiff worker in Samoa Joe, a well-rounded technician in C.M. Punk, high-flyers in A.J. Styles and Christopher Daniels, the hands-down best in-ring technicians in the world: American Dragon Bryan Danielson and Nigel McGuiness, and imported two of the best Japanese wrestlers of all time, in Kenta Kobashi and KENTA and together, they put together a product where the in-ring performances, down to every last detail, was the highlight of every show. Not some stupid Diva Search or some teenage retread of Degeneration X, or old washed up Undertaker turning back the clock to the 1990's.

Why don't you rent a Ring Of Honor DVD? The one that features the series of matches between Samoa Joe and C.M. Punk and tell me, that's stupid.
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Postby Coppermine » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:47 pm

The Artful Dodger wrote:Why don't you rent a Ring Of Honor DVD? The one that features the series of matches between Samoa Joe and C.M. Punk and tell me, that's stupid.


Eh, I watched some wrestling with my roommates and it just isn't my thing. Not so much stupid, but more boring and slightly predictable. In any case, all because I think it's stupid doesn't mean it necessarily is. It's just not something that I find entertaining, although I have stated that I do understand why people think that it is.
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:51 pm

Coppermine wrote:
The Artful Dodger wrote:Why don't you rent a Ring Of Honor DVD? The one that features the series of matches between Samoa Joe and C.M. Punk and tell me, that's stupid.


Eh, I watched some wrestling with my roommates and it just isn't my thing. Not so much stupid, but more boring and slightly predictable. In any case, all because I think it's stupid doesn't mean it necessarily is. It's just not something that I find entertaining, although I have stated that I do understand why people think that it is.


Yeah, I was just making a point that not all wrestling is pointless and stupid, especially when it's not associated with the hogwash WWE is producing. ;-D The ROH, ECW (classic ECW), TNA Division X, FMW and heck, even some WWE PPV matches aren't all that predictable though, but I agree that the WWE style they've endorsed over the last 3-4 years is extremely predictable in terms of psychology and finishes.
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Postby Madison » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:51 pm

The Artful Dodger wrote:[or old washed up Undertaker turning back the clock to the 1990's.


HEY! :-[

I happen to like the Undertaker! You're cool in my book, but don't push it by insulting my favorite wrestler! :-[

Then again, he is getting up there age wise, and I have to admit that sooner or later :-b . Guess we'll see how the last man standing match with Khali goes tonight. Got a feeling we'll be seeing a rematch (Hell in a Cell maybe?) at Summerslam Sunday, but we'll see. :-°
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Postby acsguitar » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:29 pm

Undertaker rules!
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:44 pm

We were having a perfectly good discussion about the drama and comedy that would ensue if snakes were released on a plane until you gave came along. Now you have your own thread :-D

Hey wrestling guys, snakes on a wrestler :-b

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Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:48 pm

:-b at Jake the Snake Roberts.

R.I.P. Damien (don't know if that boa is still around, but marks believe he was squashed by Earthquake, and R.I.P. Earthquake too)
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Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:54 pm

Madison wrote:
The Artful Dodger wrote:[or old washed up Undertaker turning back the clock to the 1990's.


HEY! :-[

I happen to like the Undertaker! You're cool in my book, but don't push it by insulting my favorite wrestler! :-[

Then again, he is getting up there age wise, and I have to admit that sooner or later :-b . Guess we'll see how the last man standing match with Khali goes tonight. Got a feeling we'll be seeing a rematch (Hell in a Cell maybe?) at Summerslam Sunday, but we'll see. :-°


But Taker bores me. :-b Come on, cut me some slack, I'm a smark. I'm supposed to criticize a big hoss like Taker. B-)

I think I remember there was a stretch where it felt like there was HIAC about once every 4 months and so whatever luster or allure HIAC had, it's somewhat diminished these days. I hope Khali vs. Taker doesn't wind up being a dud, but 99 times out of 100, it will. It will. :-b
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