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Am I right to be furious!?!?

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Postby swyck » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:31 pm

I dont think private leagues are any better. You still have people that judge a trade as fair only if both sides balance out completely either by average draft position, by equivalent Yahoo ratings, or by how "everyone knows" one players is better then the other.

The idea that you may be trying to move up in some cats by overpaying, possibly with players that may be on your bench, is totally foreign to most trade analysis.

I also dont post rebutals to the league, as I dont want to go into details as to my exact reasoning for making a deal. Also if I'm trying to sell high on a player I dont want to post "yeah, I think he'll suck from now on".

In this case I dont see Berkman for Crawford as being anything other then a totaly fair deal by any judgement. Pujols for Pods is totally unbalanced, but can be seen as a bold move that could be the difference between winning and losing. I'm surprised that trade wasn't vetoed since Pods is obviously not worth Pujols, but since it was going from high to low I guess most managers didnt really care.

Even if you're wrong, you sometimes need to gamble late. I'm surprised by how few deals there are in most leagues at the deadline. How can someone sit there in an H2H league if they're on the playoff bubble, or in 4th place in a roto league? Do these managers think they're just going to do better then they have been? Are they happy with their position? Make a move and fight for that title! Or if you're in last place make a move to get out of there. Even if the move turns out wrong, its better then just sitting there hoping your players "turn it around".
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Postby pokerplaya » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:39 pm

You have every right to be furious.

I actually made that same exact trade (me getting Crawford) a few weeks back, and it was likely the fairest deal I've made all year.
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Postby FantasyGURU802 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:47 pm

That's a free league for ya
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Postby bleach168 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:48 pm

Berkman for Crawford seems pretty fair to me.
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Postby bigh0rt » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:49 pm

One should never be furious over fantasy baseball, but I'd be a tad annoyed with this.
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Postby 1337_Dude » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:29 pm

That really does suck, that's why I try to stay away from public leagues anymore. I'd try to offer it again and again until something goes right.
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Postby astav28 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:52 pm

UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!

I offered the trade again, the guy accepted again:

The opponent who started the issue in the first place posts this cute message:

Pathetic
by: Bondsquad2006 (gcart588) Aug 12 6:36pm
Could your collaboration be any more obvious? This guy never makes any moves and now he has accepted not 1 but 2 bogus trades with you on back to back days? I wonder why Pronk wouldn't do a Berkman-Ichiro deal but 8W would do a Crawford-Berkman deal, don't you? I think we would all agree that Crawford is more valuable than Ichiro, but you couldn't even get Ichiro for the ailing Berkman.

You said "Obviously this trade makes sense for both of us, it could move him from 12th to 10th or 9th which is obviously an improvement and help me in my quest for first. "

As for this weak attempt to rationalize the deal, let me take a brief moment to completely disassemble it: In order for 8W to gain even 1 point in the HR category he would have to gain 19HR on Toronto(who actively manages his team). So, it's quite obvious Berkman is no help in that regard. Lets look at RBI's 8W would need to gain 36RBI's on Toronto just to gain even one point. The only effect this trade will have on the standings is 8W will be passed by 3-4 teams in the SB category and you will have an opportunity to improve in the SB category. Case Closed!!!!!!!!!!! You can't refute that. It's obvious that 8W would actually drop in the standings (amazing as that is) and you could only benefit.

I think next time you should spend more time trying to work out legitimate deals and less time being an annoying jerk who resorts to lameass tactics because he knows his team has lost. In closing; I find it humorous that you've stopped making arrogant posts about preseason predictions. Why is that?????????????????

To the other managers, mainly Pronk, Rambo,Sugabraves,Aurochs,Toronto and Evil. I would just like to say that contrary to Fantasy's high and mighty position, I have enjoyed playing with you and I am proud to be in a league who has repeatedly vetoed unfair, and suspicious trades. There is nothing worse than a cheat, and I thank each of you for your fair play. I am positive you can see the facts and will VETO THIS TRADE AGAIN!! Sorry Fantasy, better luck next year.



Well, in my response, it's incredibly difficult to be accused of cheating when youve been a dedicated and fair-playing manager for your whole fantasy career. I really love public leagues because they give me the practice for my leagues with friends, but when this stuff happens it just really turns me off from it. I just find it hilarious because im in 2nd place, 3 points out of first, and hes actting as if though I needed this trade as a desperate last try to get first place. Its just so mind boggling.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:52 pm

That other guy is an idiot. That deal is fair as fair can get.
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Postby great gretzky » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:57 pm

well, I would say this:

He has a point in the breakdown, and the e guy who protested understands the game to a good degree. I think this element to evaluating trades is sorely missing from the debate sometimes. Even though we all have a general sense of value here at the cafe, and no amount of "needing steals" ever really justifies a pujols for pods trade, (unless its a contender with a huge power lead, and really needs the steals to seal the deal, but you get my drift). I think that owners SHOULD always be allowed to overpay to get the missing piece as it relates to the final standings. I get pissed if I was in reversed, I need a specialty stat, and moving up in that stat offsets any overall points lost by trading the stud.

but, if I feel that way, I should accept vetos based on that. And the simple fact of the matter is that while needs come into play and should be considered, if the fact is, his lead in steals would result in him losing points in steals (and probably runs), and crawford is the more valuable player to begin with, I think he has a point (sorry).

I guess ultimately, I think if players are ballpark within 20-30 percent or so, and needs come into play, vetos are out of hand. I want to run my team. In one league a guy has a 41! homerun league over the next best guy, and that turns to 50 if he were to lose two points, and a 70 homerun lead to lose three points. So, if he could make up points in steals or something else, he should be totally free to offer up his Ryan Howard and Wright or tejada (he is in the overall lead) to get his missing pieces, even if its unfair on the surface.

I do think he has a point, but I can't see your league standings table. and in my heart I agree with you. But you can't deny crawford as being worth more overall than berkman, and if this trade isn't filling a power gult for the other guy, where he could make up five or more points while only losing two, I think you almost have to defer here.


That said, I can't look at the league distribution. 19 hr is not that much, if berkman had a couple of hot months. If you took out a power drain in favor of berkman, he could make up 12 of those hr's. Then if the next person's guys got cold, and yours got hot, you could make it up.

But when faced with an in-depth analaysis, and the guy you are getting is better overall, you do have an uphill road ahead of you.
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Postby swyck » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:27 pm

Sorry Gretz but I wouldnt say that Crawford is that much better then Berkman.

Crawford 66-15-58 34 .303
Berkman 65-31-98 1 .326

Sure Crawford's SBs give him a lot of value, but Berkman has him by a good number in 3 other cats. Those are stud numbers there. IMO Berkman and Crawford have more or less equal value, or at least in the same ballbark.

When people start micro analyzing a trade they've stepped WAY over the bounds of how far they should go. These are two equal or nearly equal players, and that should be enough.

Its also one thing to feel a trade is bad, and even to veto it but in this case to call out the participants and call them cheaters is way over the top. :-P

You have good reason to be upset by this, but there's not much you can do besides try a reasonable address to the other managers. I suggest you not get into a flame war with the other guy.

By this logic all last place teams should be barred from trading, because when you get right down to it, they've already lost so what's the point of them even making a move?
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