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HoF Debate: Ted Simmons

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Postby thedude » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:21 am

I believe the biggest knock on Simmons was always his defense. He couldn't really throw out any base stealers after his first couple years in the league.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:18 am

thedude wrote:I believe the biggest knock on Simmons was always his defense. He couldn't really throw out any base stealers after his first couple years in the league.

Simmons career CS% is .315 not great but not bad. The aforementioned great defense of Gary Carter yielded a .323 career CS% and Fisk's career CS% is .307.

His FLD% is comparable to Carter and Fisk too. In fact the on real knock I see on his defense is that he had a lot of PB.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:21 am

joshheines wrote:Carter, on the other hand, should be regarded as one of the top defensive catchers of all-time. During his peak defensive years (1978 - 1983) Carter saved his team 20 runs over the average catcher for his defense alone. Carter was as good as Pudge is today (or was in his on hey-day). Carter produced about 9.35 wins over a replacement level player for 10 years. Simmons peak of 9.2 wins contributed above a replacement player doesn't even match Carter's 10 year average. This is not to say Simmons isn't really good, but at best he's a very questionable HOFer. While in my mind Carter is among the elite catchers.

Do you have a link for some of this? I've never thought of Carter as an elite defensive catcher, definately not on I-Rod's level.
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Postby joshheines » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:35 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
thedude wrote:I believe the biggest knock on Simmons was always his defense. He couldn't really throw out any base stealers after his first couple years in the league.

Simmons career CS% is .315 not great but not bad. The aforementioned great defense of Gary Carter yielded a .323 career CS% and Fisk's career CS% is .307.

His FLD% is comparable to Carter and Fisk too. In fact the on real knock I see on his defense is that he had a lot of PB.


This is too simple of an argument looking at the numbers you want to look at.

Carter played 2056 games as a catcher, Simmons played 1771 games as a catcher. Carter had 11785 putouts as a catcher. Simmons had 8906. That means Carter averaged 5.73 putouts per game while Simmons averaged only 5.03 putouts per game.

Carter also had 1203 assists in his career. Simmons had 915 in his career. That comes out to a .58 per game average for Carter and .52 average for Simmons.

Carter only had 121 errors in his career at catcher. Simmons had 130. That means Carter average 9.53 errors per 162 games at catcher, while Simmons averaged 11.9 errors per 162 games.

Carter was involved in 149 double plays in his career and Simmons was involved in 104 DPs. Thus, Carter averaged 11.7 DPs per 162 and Simmons averaged 9.5.

Carter's range factor for his career at catcher was 6.32 while the league average was 5.48. Simmons was at 5.55 while the league was at 5.34. For poops and giggles, Pudge's range factor is 6.55, but league average is 5.91.

Carter allowed only 84 passed balls, while Simmons allowed 182. Therefore, Carter allowed only 6.6 passed balls per 162 games. Simmons allowed 16.6 passed balls per 162.

Carter won 3 gold globes (80, 81, 82). Simmons has none.

It's not even remotely close.
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Postby joshheines » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:42 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
joshheines wrote:Carter, on the other hand, should be regarded as one of the top defensive catchers of all-time. During his peak defensive years (1978 - 1983) Carter saved his team 20 runs over the average catcher for his defense alone. Carter was as good as Pudge is today (or was in his on hey-day). Carter produced about 9.35 wins over a replacement level player for 10 years. Simmons peak of 9.2 wins contributed above a replacement player doesn't even match Carter's 10 year average. This is not to say Simmons isn't really good, but at best he's a very questionable HOFer. While in my mind Carter is among the elite catchers.

Do you have a link for some of this? I've never thought of Carter as an elite defensive catcher, definately not on I-Rod's level.


Here's two links and you can look at the numbers yourself.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cartega01.shtml

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rodriiv01.shtml

Look at FRAA - It stands for Fielding Runs Above Average, or the runs this players saved over the average defensive catcher. Look at it for adjusted all-time because this will remove any decade, time or era bias the numbers may show. Carter saved 149 runs. As of today, Pudge has saved 196 runs. Once Carter hit 34 he became a below average defender. Pudge is now 34. I expect that if Pudge stays behind the plate a few more years he will become a below average defender and his numbers will come back to Carters; however, Pudge will still finish with better numbers.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 am

joshheines wrote:Carter played 2056 games as a catcher, Simmons played 1771 games as a catcher. Carter had 11785 putouts as a catcher. Simmons had 8906. That means Carter averaged 5.73 putouts per game while Simmons averaged only 5.03 putouts per game.

Carter also had 1203 assists in his career. Simmons had 915 in his career. That comes out to a .58 per game average for Carter and .52 average for Simmons.

Carter only had 121 errors in his career at catcher. Simmons had 130. That means Carter average 9.53 errors per 162 games at catcher, while Simmons averaged 11.9 errors per 162 games.

Carter was involved in 149 double plays in his career and Simmons was involved in 104 DPs. Thus, Carter averaged 11.7 DPs per 162 and Simmons averaged 9.5.

Carter's range factor for his career at catcher was 6.32 while the league average was 5.48. Simmons was at 5.55 while the league was at 5.34. For poops and giggles, Pudge's range factor is 6.55, but league average is 5.91.


i am not a huge fan of defensive stats. these things, aside from the errors and passed balls, include factors outside of the control of the player. they measure what happened, but dont necessarily speak to the quality of the player.


Carter won 3 gold globes (80, 81, 82). Simmons has none.


while its subjective and the gold gloves arent necessarily always awarded to the best defender i think this is a better indication of defensive ability.

simmons wasnt as good as carter defensively, but does he need to be? the case for simmons is that his offense overcomes any of his defensive shortcomings.
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:23 am

nobody answered a pervious question of mine...is Simmons still eligible? I know players have to have a certain % each time they vote to stay on the ballot.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:26 am

Havok1517 wrote:nobody answered a pervious question of mine...is Simmons still eligible? I know players have to have a certain % each time they vote to stay on the ballot.


he isnt on the ballot but is still eligible to be voted in by the veterans committe for a few more years. i think until 2011?
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:30 am

joshheines wrote:This is too simple of an argument looking at the numbers you want to look at.
I'm not so sure about that. The PB are significant and the errors seem minor but the assists, PO, DP, and RF for a catcher rely too much on opportunity and not enough on actually range for me.
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:43 am

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:nobody answered a pervious question of mine...is Simmons still eligible? I know players have to have a certain % each time they vote to stay on the ballot.


he isnt on the ballot but is still eligible to be voted in by the veterans committe for a few more years. i think until 2011?


So he never enough votes from the writers required to stay on the ballot, right? Then his chances are slim in my opinion to be voted in.
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