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Man Ram for MVP?

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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:14 am

Havok1517 wrote:Red Sox / Yankee debate... sad :-/


I must have missed where the Yankees came into this debate. This has nothing to do with either team, only a few players (Ortiz, Hafner, Manny, Jeter, Thome, Mauer, etc.)
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:29 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:Red Sox / Yankee debate... sad :-/


I must have missed where the Yankees came into this debate. This has nothing to do with either team, only a few players (Ortiz, Hafner, Manny, Jeter, Thome, Mauer, etc.)


Whatever, its Jeter vs. Ortiz. Yankee haters are putting down Jeter and Sox haters are putting down Ortiz.
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Postby ukrneal » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:02 am

Havok1517 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:Red Sox / Yankee debate... sad :-/


I must have missed where the Yankees came into this debate. This has nothing to do with either team, only a few players (Ortiz, Hafner, Manny, Jeter, Thome, Mauer, etc.)


Whatever, its Jeter vs. Ortiz. Yankee haters are putting down Jeter and Sox haters are putting down Ortiz.


To think, all of that in a thread about manny.... :~(
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Postby Matthias » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:29 am

Havok1517 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:Red Sox / Yankee debate... sad :-/


I must have missed where the Yankees came into this debate. This has nothing to do with either team, only a few players (Ortiz, Hafner, Manny, Jeter, Thome, Mauer, etc.)


Whatever, its Jeter vs. Ortiz. Yankee haters are putting down Jeter and Sox haters are putting down Ortiz.


Not at all. Someone said that Ortiz couldn't make it as half a player so I was pointing out that Manny (umm... Red Sox?) and Jeter (Yankees) both have bad defensive statistics this year. If someone has access to different and better defensive stats, happy to hear them. But the idea that Ortiz shouldn't win it b/c he's, "only half a player" is absurd when two of the other leading candidates are also, "only half a player."

And Bronx has consistently been arguing for the past two weeks now that Ortiz doesn't deserve the award b/c of saber stats vs. traditional stats. As well as putting down Jeter b/c of his range factors.

What this is about is what considerations people should use for the MVP and in this thread, specificially if Manny is doing better in those considerations than anyone else. The only one who is making this into Yankees/Red Sox is you.
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Postby Chicago RedSox » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:25 am

I also posted this in the precursor to this thread, the one asking if a DH would win MVP this year....

Is is an article written last year in hardball times about why Arod should win over Ortiz. In it, they show what they claim is the instruction letter that the voters recieve from MLB.

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There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from one to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot.

Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.

Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.


What I read out of this, is we're still a long ways away from using VORP, RC/27, WS, etc to determine the winner. Especially if anti-statistical factors like as "general character, disposition, loyalty and effort" are in use.
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Postby Strasil42 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:17 pm

Chicago RedSox wrote:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
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Postby Matthias » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Strasil42 wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.


Sure. And if someone has a negative value to their team in defense?
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:08 pm

Matthias wrote:
Strasil42 wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.


Sure. And if someone has a negative value to their team in defense?


Agreed. I'd have no problem with Ortiz winning the award...if his numbers are the best. Right now though, I think there are a few better options. Ortiz being a DH has nothing to do with my opinion. Hafner would be my vote right now, and he's strictly a DH as well.
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:36 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Strasil42 wrote:
Chicago RedSox wrote:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.


Sure. And if someone has a negative value to their team in defense?


Agreed. I'd have no problem with Ortiz winning the award...if his numbers are the best. Right now though, I think there are a few better options. Ortiz being a DH has nothing to do with my opinion. Hafner would be my vote right now, and he's strictly a DH as well.


I doubt a player (Hafner) will win the MVP with his team about 26 games back.
Last edited by Havok1517 on Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mashug » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:02 am

Ortiz may be a DH but Manny is a liability in the field. I agree the MVP should be at least a decent fielder, but I think you make an exception with Ortiz. He the best clutch hitter I've ever seen. (Michael Young's not far behind) I'd love to see Jeter win it, but as of now, Ortiz is the MVP
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