Is Joe Nathan the best closer in baseball? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Is Joe Nathan the best closer in baseball?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Mashug » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:52 pm

davidmarver wrote:
UncleIvan wrote:You will need a big game pitcher like Mo Rivera.

Big game as in blowing game seven of a world series or big game like blowing game four of the alcs, leading to the biggest collapse in baseball playoff history? I can't decide either.

Give me Nathan and Papelbon.


Nobody's flawless, Einstein. Obviously you have the right to hate the Yankees and wish for Rivera to be mediocre but get real. The infamous "blown save" in game 7 was a series of bouncers, bloopers and errors and I think 1 hard hit ball, which you would have seen if you actually watched the game objectively. Let's assume it was a legitimate blown save and he got hit hard. His numbers still speak loudly as to what kind of pitcher and competitor he is. Name someone better.

Critisizing him for not beiing 100% is like saying Ted Williams sucked because he made out more than 65% of his carrer. You do know who Ted Williams was, don't you?
Mashug
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 597
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Kurtangletn » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:57 pm

I got Nathan later in one of my leagues :)

He is a great closer, but he hasn't got many svops this year which has overshadowded him.

I'd take him over anyone, in a bases loaded no outs situation, he can just strike out like a mad man.
"This flag dips to no earthly king."
Kurtangletn
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 538
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby johnsamo » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:12 pm

With K Rod though... being a reliever changes the injury risk vs. a starter with high torque mechanics. There's a huge difference between throwing 100 + pitches per appearance and 200 innings a year vs. a guy who throws 15 or so pitches and far fewer innings.

Technically, every player, pircher or fielder, is slightly damaging his arm with every throw they make because the human body isn't designed to throw overhand, which is why you will occassionally see position players who have Tommy John surgery, and even high school pitchers have had Tommy John surgery.

Which sort of proves a point, some players have more of a rubber arm than others. And K-Rod may have a rubber arm, but there's no real way of knowing or not till either his arm explodes or his career is done. Odds are. based on his mechanics his shouder or elbow will give out earlyn his career, but there's no way of knowing for sure until it happens.

Also, though every pitch strains the ligaments, they do more so for pitchers when they grow fatigued, and they try to over compensated by throwing even harder, that's when the damage factor really increases, but with K-Rod, he's never throwing a lot of pitches in any appearance so he's not going past that fatigue point often it at all.
johnsamo
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1826
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Los Angeles

Postby davidmarver » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:39 pm

Mashug wrote:Nobody's flawless, Einstein.

That's precisely why the term "big game pitcher" makes no sense and why the topic of this thread should have the response of Nathan, Papelbon, etc. and not Rivera.
Obviously you have the right to hate the Yankees and wish for Rivera to be mediocre but get real.

I actually just said in my last post that he was 'good'. He's been one of the better closers of all-time.
The infamous "blown save" in game 7 was a series of bouncers, bloopers and errors and I think 1 hard hit ball, which you would have seen if you actually watched the game objectively.

Seeing as I am not a Yankee or Diamondback fan -- dislike both -- and you are a Yankee fan, I think I probably watched the game more objectively than you.
Let's assume it was a legitimate blown save and he got hit hard.

So hitting a batter, giving up three hits, and committing an error on your throw all in 1/3rd of an inning isn't a legitimate blown save? Right. :-?

His numbers still speak loudly as to what kind of pitcher and competitor he is. Name someone better.

Don't really want to get this argument started again, but my answer to the thread topic is Nathan and Papelbon.

Critisizing him for not beiing 100% is like saying Ted Williams sucked because he made out more than 65% of his carrer. You do know who Ted Williams was, don't you?

Seeing as there's the Ted Williams baseball field, the Ted Williams Freeway, and the Ted Williams Parkway all within 20 minutes of my house, and that he was once a member of the Santa Barbara baseball team -- near where I go to school -- and of the San Diego Padres, the answer to that is a resounding yes. And no, that's not like criticizing him for not being 100%...I'm simply pointing out that Mariano is not a postseason God...his shortcomings offset his postseasons of dominance.
Image
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6154
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Postby Mashug » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:56 pm

davidmarver wrote:
Mashug wrote:Nobody's flawless, Einstein.

That's precisely why the term "big game pitcher" makes no sense and why the topic of this thread should have the response of Nathan, Papelbon, etc. and not Rivera.
Obviously you have the right to hate the Yankees and wish for Rivera to be mediocre but get real.

I actually just said in my last post that he was 'good'. He's been one of the better closers of all-time.
The infamous "blown save" in game 7 was a series of bouncers, bloopers and errors and I think 1 hard hit ball, which you would have seen if you actually watched the game objectively.

Seeing as I am not a Yankee or Diamondback fan -- dislike both -- and you are a Yankee fan, I think I probably watched the game more objectively than you.
Let's assume it was a legitimate blown save and he got hit hard.

So hitting a batter, giving up three hits, and committing an error on your throw all in 1/3rd of an inning isn't a legitimate blown save? Right. :-?

His numbers still speak loudly as to what kind of pitcher and competitor he is. Name someone better.

Don't really want to get this argument started again, but my answer to the thread topic is Nathan and Papelbon.

Critisizing him for not beiing 100% is like saying Ted Williams sucked because he made out more than 65% of his carrer. You do know who Ted Williams was, don't you?

Seeing as there's the Ted Williams baseball field, the Ted Williams Freeway, and the Ted Williams Parkway all within 20 minutes of my house, and that he was once a member of the Santa Barbara baseball team -- near where I go to school -- and of the San Diego Padres, the answer to that is a resounding yes. And no, that's not like criticizing him for not being 100%...I'm simply pointing out that Mariano is not a postseason God...his shortcomings offset his postseasons of dominance.


Not worth the effort. Get a life.
Mashug
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 597
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby davidmarver » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:17 pm

Mashug wrote:Not worth the effort. Get a life.

Typical. ;-D
Image
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6154
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Postby Strasil42 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:41 pm

davidmarver wrote:
Mashug wrote:Nobody's flawless, Einstein.

That's precisely why the term "big game pitcher" makes no sense and why the topic of this thread should have the response of Nathan, Papelbon, etc. and not Rivera.
[.


Nathan has a 0-2 postseason record with a 8.44 era.

And of course no one is going to be perfect in the postseason forever, no one ever has, and no one ever will.

He has a .71 postseason whip, and is something like 34 out of 37 save opportunies in the playoffs.

He is the definition of a big game pitcher.
Strasil42
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 4347
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Omaha

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:51 pm

I really don't think its possible for a closer to be a "big game pitcher" since they usually only get 3 outs. For the definition of "big game pitcher" please see Curt Schilling & Andy Pettitte. ;-D
Havok1517
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe Writer
Posts: 8510
(Past Year: 115)
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Mashug » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:53 pm

Strasil42 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
Mashug wrote:Nobody's flawless, Einstein.

That's precisely why the term "big game pitcher" makes no sense and why the topic of this thread should have the response of Nathan, Papelbon, etc. and not Rivera.
[.


Nathan has a 0-2 postseason record with a 8.44 era.

And of course no one is going to be perfect in the postseason forever, no one ever has, and no one ever will.

He has a .71 postseason whip, and is something like 34 out of 37 save opportunies in the playoffs.

Don't waste your time. The numbers lie. Everyone knows Rivera's really a choker. Evil Yankee fans like us are biased.

He is the definition of a big game pitcher.
Mashug
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 597
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Strasil42 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:47 am

Havok1517 wrote:I really don't think its possible for a closer to be a "big game pitcher" since they usually only get 3 outs. For the definition of "big game pitcher" please see Curt Schilling & Andy Pettitte. ;-D


Rivera has gotten a ton of saves where he pitched for more than 3 outs.

Please see his career numbers. ;-D

Andy Pettitte has an ERA over 4 in the playoffs and is 3-4 in the world series.

I would consider John Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Mariano Rivera, and Curt Schilling all big game pitchers.
Strasil42
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 4347
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Omaha

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Pogotheostrich and 9 guests

cron
Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Aug. 21
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Houston at NY Yankees
(1:05 pm)
Cleveland at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Detroit at Tampa Bay
(1:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Washington
(4:05 pm)
LA Angels at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Atlanta at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
San Francisco at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
San Diego at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact