HOF Debate: Mark McGwire

[DK]

to me his body looks natural

That bicep does not look any more natural than McGwire's to me.

[The Miner Part 2]

look at that monster..

[Big Pimpin]

ZIG all I was saying was that there's no proof any of these guys did roids and there's no proof that any of them didn't. So why Big Mac gets lumped into the "cheaters" and Belle is "clean" is beyond me. The only guys that know for sure are them, and they ain't talkin'. And seriously, if you want to believe Canseco about everyone, that's your perogative.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you'd quit jumping down my damn throat every time you disagree with something I say.

And yeah, I did say that Belle had "a few good seasons." And I should have said he had a few "great" seasons, but that's neither here nor there. Top 2 in OPS+ twice and top 2 in RC 4 times says he had a few "great" seasons. But I stand by my statement that he had neither (A) a long enough career OR (B) enough "dominant" seasons to merit being in the HOF.

I just don't see it. But I'm not a writer, so you don't have to care about my opinion.

[Belle4Hall88]

So why Big Mac gets lumped into the "cheaters" and Belle is "clean" is beyond me.

Because Albert Belle didn't appear in court crying like a baby refusing to tell the truth.

And yeah, I did say that Belle had "a few good seasons." And I should have said he had a few "great" seasons, but that's neither here nor there. Top 2 in OPS+ twice and top 2 in RC 4 times says he had a few "great" seasons.

Also some more stats...

Lead the league in slugging 1995 & 1998
Lead the league in OPS 1998
Lead the league in runs 1995
Lead the league in total bases 1994, 1995, 1998
Lead the league in doubles 1995
Lead the league in home runs 1995
Lead the league in RBI 1993, 1995, 1996
Lead the league in adjusted OPS 1998
Lead the league in runs created 1998
Lead the league in EBH 1994, 1995, 1998
Lead the league in salary 1997,1998,1999,2000
9 straight 100 RBI seasons
8 straight 30 HR seasons
Only MLB player to ever hit 50 home runs and 50 doubles in the same season
5 Time Silver Slugger
5 Time AL All-Star
1995 Major League POY

Top 5 finishes:
AL MVP votes 5x
Batting average 5x
OBP 2x
Slugging % 4x
OPS 3x
Runs 3x
Hits 2x
Total Bases 5x
Doubles 4x
Home Runs 6x
RBI 7x
RC 5x
EBH 5x
AB/HR 6x

So unless everybody else in the MLB completley sucked in the 90s, Belle had some years back in the day.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you'd quit jumping down my damn throat every time you disagree with something I say.

Sorry, its not personal, I just get really defensive about Albert Belle. He is the best player I have ever seen in my life and I don't think he gets the credit he needs.

[wrveres]

I love it ..

so now the deciding factors as to who gets into the HOF is ...

A) Jose Canseco said so.
B) "Look at him"
C) He didn't appear in front of congress.


good stuff..
keep it coming

[The Miner Part 2]

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you'd quit jumping down my damn throat every time you disagree with something I say.

Sorry, its not personal, I just get really defensive about Albert Belle. He is the best player I have ever seen in my life and I don't think he gets the credit he needs.

he was talking to zito is god btw.

[wrveres]

yeah. whatever. you guys are a bunch of [edited] if you can't figure out on your own that Belle was amazing.

look man ..

There is no reason to attack me or anybody else for that matter.
I was an Albert Belle junkie just like most. How could you not be.
And I can tell by your screen name, that we will probably be having lots of objective discussions about why the guy should or shouldn't be in the HOF in the future. I think thats great. I would gamble that their are even people here that agree with your theories, of "Trust Jose", "look at him" and "He didn't cry in front of congress" (nevermind he wasn't invited) if you didn't decide to make your case in the Mark for HOF thread ..

I know for a fact that the "Look at him, he is Guilty" crowd is abundent here ..

[Big Pimpin]

Lead the league in slugging 1995 & 1998
Lead the league in OPS 1998
Lead the league in runs 1995
Lead the league in total bases 1994, 1995, 1998
Lead the league in doubles 1995
Lead the league in home runs 1995
Lead the league in RBI 1993, 1995, 1996
Lead the league in adjusted OPS 1998
Lead the league in runs created 1998
Lead the league in EBH 1994, 1995, 1998

Top 5 finishes:
AL MVP votes 5x
Batting average 5x
OBP 2x
Slugging % 4x
OPS 3x
Runs 3x
Hits 2x
Total Bases 5x
Doubles 4x
Home Runs 6x
RBI 7x
RC 5x
EBH 5x
AB/HR 6x

So unless everybody else in the MLB completley sucked in the 90s, Belle had some years back in the day.

Look I never said he sucked. All I said was that (A) his career numbers don't get him in (for example, less than 400 HRs for a "power hitter" in this era is not that impressive), and (B) he wasn't dominant enough in the years he did have. I'll give him 1995 and 1998 as outstanding years, but he wasn't the dominant hitter in baseball for a stretch of several years (a la Koufax pitching, who also had a short career). Dude never even won an MVP. He was a fine player, just not a Hall of Famer in my book.

He is the best player I have ever seen in my life and I don't think he gets the credit he needs.

I do find it odd you've never seen Bonds, Griffey, Thomas, ARod, or even Pujols play.

I think Albert gets out of prison here in a few weeks, you might be able to stop by and give him your regards if you've got the time.

[Belle4Hall88]

I'll give him 1995 and 1998 as outstanding years, but he wasn't the dominant hitter in baseball for a stretch of several years

1993:
.290 BA
38 HR
129 RBI
23 SB
.552 SLG

1994: (stike shortened)
.357 BA
36 HR
101 RBI
.438 OBP
.714 SLG

1995:(strike shortened)
.317 BA
52 2B/50 HR*
121 R
126 RBI
.401 OBP
.690 SLG

1996:
.311 BA
48 HR
124 R
148 RBI
11 SB
.410 OBP
.623 SLG

1997:
.274 BA
45 2B
30 HR
116 RBI
311 TB

1998:
.328 BA
48 HR
152 RBI
113 R
.399 OBP
.655 SLG

1999:
.297 BA
37 HR
116 RBI
108 R
17 SB
.400 OBP

Thats 7 straight years of dominance right there. You could argue him as the MVP of the league in each one of those years except for 1997. Every other season is MVP worthy.

You say that Bonds, Griffey & Thomas were better than him. Here is how their stats compare from 93-99 with him.

Belle: 288 HR, 888 RBI, .308 BA

Griffey: 311 HR, 808 RBI, .296 BA

Thomas: 238 HR, 785 RBI, .323 BA

Bonds: 269 HR, 732 RBI, .303 BA

Homeruns:
1. Griffey
2.Belle
3. Bonds
4. Thomas

RBI:
1. Belle
2. Griffey
3. Thomas
4. Bonds

BA:
1. Thomas
2. Belle
3. Bonds
4. Griffey

[Mookie4ever]

Here's an idea. Why don't you start a separate thread on whether Belle should be in the HOF and we can discuss Mark McGwire and the HOF in this thread?