HOF Debate: Mark McGwire - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

HOF Debate: Mark McGwire

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

HOF Debate: Mark McGwire

Postby giants! » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:50 am

Do his on the field accomplishments override the steroid controversy? If so, what ballot should he go in on.
Image
giants!
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2982
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby J35J » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:06 am

.... Yes


Jason
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 393)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Starkmadfan » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:16 am

Ok since St. Louis is my next favorite city/team after NYC - let me take a shot at this.

1. McGwire has not had a positive steroid test nor has been suspended for steroids (as opposed to say Palmero)
2. McGwire has not actually been caught lying after being sworn in to tell the truth (again opposed to Palmero) - his refusing to answer is an entirely different thing.
3. He is not required to participate in the Mitchell investigation.

With that said - no way does he go in with Ripken and Gwynn. As has been said repeatedly by sports writters, it would take away from those two guys inductions and I agree. Should he ever enter the Hall? I have to say yes - he and Sosa helped bring the sport back after that bitter taste of the strike/no world series and his records were made before MLB had the steroid/HGH policies.

There has been some talk I read about seperating the time periods of baseball to give better focus to each era - no asteriks or any thing like that - but just a categorization of the period so fans later can understand the records and see them in context. I think that would be a good idea, and once they do that, so fans can understand what the times were like for Ruth/Maris/Aaron compared to say McGuire and others of their time, then McGuire should get in.
Help me out here? : http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2321827#2321827

Image

Artwork by madaslives911
Starkmadfan
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 842
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby joshheines » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:38 am

Even assuming McGwire was officially outed for using steroids, he still gets in. McGwire and Sosa should go down as two of the, maybe, ten most important baseball players of all-time. Note, I said important, not best. The strike of 1994 decimated the fans faith in baseball.

Believe it or not, according to at least website I visited, baseball was never more popular than it was in 1994. 31,256 people, on average, visited every game. In 1993, over 70,000,000 tickets were purchased by people to go to the ballpark. Then, in 1995, just over 50,000,000 tickets were purchased. That was about a 25 percent loss. In 1996, fans did come back. In fact, 60,000,000 tickets were purchased that year. In 1997, it appeared as if the mass rush back to baseball slowed as only 3,000,000 more tickets were bought. At this point we're three years removed from the strike and attendance has risen about 13,000,000 from the first post-strike year, but was still down about 10,000,000 from the pre-strike year. Then in 1998, as Sosa and McGwire battled against history and each other, attendance returned to its pre-strike form and over 70,000,000 tickets were purchased again.

Some may say that it was the natural progression of things that the people return; however, as we can see in the movie market there is traditionally a large drop-off after the first weekend (or season). Attendance was raised 10 million from 1995 to 1996, and then only 3 million from 1996 to 1997. It would make sense that less and less people would return each year, but in 1998 7 million more tickets were purchased. Even assuming a fifty percent drop, we would assume that only 1.5 million more tickets should have been pruchased in 1998, from 1997. Thus, while the assumption and the math are rough, McGwire and Sosa's battle got people interested in baseball again and can be at least in part attributed to bring millions and millions of fans back to the game.

I know it brought me back.
It's easy, fun, and 100% safe!
joshheines
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 535
Joined: 29 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Zito is God » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:58 am

Well, is the question should he, or willhe get in?

I doubt he will get in, especially during his first couple of tries. The committe from what I hear on ESPN are very sour on the whole refusal to investigate and automatically believe that he should be punished for it. His congress testimony was controverislal to say the least "The past is in the past so I do not feel like discussing it" or something of that sort? You don't say that when you are in front of a jury when you have at least half a brain.

As for should he get in, it is a tough issue for me. I grew up when Mguire was at his highest peak. Everyone knew him, I've seen his HRs when I was little, and everyone respected him and he was quite a feared hitter. I however believe that steroids should automatically disqualify you from the HoF. If everyone took steroids you don't know how many HRs a guy like Loretta lets say (hitters that don't have too much power but are very good at contact) could have. Jeter, Polanco, Eckstein, Damon, and the list goes on. The fact is they did not take drugs that are illegal, and the public opinions court believe that McGwire did.

I understand that he can hide behind the bill of rights and innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't work that way at all times. When you are hiding from prison, thats one thing, but when the court of public opinions (not the legal system) is the court that decides whether you get in or not, the whole thing doesn't work the same way.

In close, I guarantee McGwire does not get in with Ripken and Gwynn, and I think it'll take a couple of tries. Thing is his numbers will eventually get him in, but it likely won't be fopr a while until all the steroid talk dies down.
Image

Sean Tracey has my apologies, we all know Ozzie Guillen is an idiot. I'm rooting for you!
Zito is God
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 4169
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Secretly advising Cashman.

Postby The Miner Part 2 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:02 pm

joshheines wrote:Even assuming McGwire was officially outed for using steroids, he still gets in. McGwire and Sosa should go down as two of the, maybe, ten most important baseball players of all-time. Note, I said important, not best. The strike of 1994 decimated the fans faith in baseball.

Believe it or not, according to at least website I visited, baseball was never more popular than it was in 1994. 31,256 people, on average, visited every game. In 1993, over 70,000,000 tickets were purchased by people to go to the ballpark. Then, in 1995, just over 50,000,000 tickets were purchased. That was about a 25 percent loss. In 1996, fans did come back. In fact, 60,000,000 tickets were purchased that year. In 1997, it appeared as if the mass rush back to baseball slowed as only 3,000,000 more tickets were bought. At this point we're three years removed from the strike and attendance has risen about 13,000,000 from the first post-strike year, but was still down about 10,000,000 from the pre-strike year. Then in 1998, as Sosa and McGwire battled against history and each other, attendance returned to its pre-strike form and over 70,000,000 tickets were purchased again.

Some may say that it was the natural progression of things that the people return; however, as we can see in the movie market there is traditionally a large drop-off after the first weekend (or season). Attendance was raised 10 million from 1995 to 1996, and then only 3 million from 1996 to 1997. It would make sense that less and less people would return each year, but in 1998 7 million more tickets were purchased. Even assuming a fifty percent drop, we would assume that only 1.5 million more tickets should have been pruchased in 1998, from 1997. Thus, while the assumption and the math are rough, McGwire and Sosa's battle got people interested in baseball again and can be at least in part attributed to bring millions and millions of fans back to the game.

I know it brought me back.


blarg, god i hate this argument. baseball would have been fine sooner or later, while those two helped bring fans back, they woulda been back eventually.
Image
The Miner Part 2
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Throwing rocks at The Cubby Bear.

Postby 405z06 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:08 pm

Somewhere it must be factored in that they didn't play a full season in 1995, right?
405z06
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 126
Joined: 23 May 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: St Louis, MO

Postby Deuce » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:15 pm

Mark McGwire has to go in. This is the new America. Guilty until proven innocent. When Cal Ripken goes in, do we ask him how he was able to play all of those games through injury?
Until it is proven that he and Barry were the only Hall worthy players on juice, the whole era is eligible. Baseball is entertainment. Through McGwire playing time, I was thoroughly entertained.

McGwire saved baseball - Chicks dig the long ball.

Gwynn and Ripken were great players. I enjoyed watching McGwire more.
The glass is neither half full nor half empty... It is simply a glass
Deuce
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Lucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 1039
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Dwellin Cellars

Postby Art Vandelay » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:22 pm

If McGwire doesn't get in, then they might as well disqualify everyone who played between 1986 and 2006. If they keep someone out based on nothing but speculation and rumor with no positive test, and no evidence other than "look at him, he must be on something," I'll be extremely disappointed.

I'd hate to turn this into another greenies vs. steroids thread, but does anyone actually believe that Ripken played all those games without using peformance enhancers?
Art Vandelay
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5265
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby The Miner Part 2 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:25 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:If McGwire doesn't get in, then they might as well disqualify everyone who played between 1986 and 2006. If they keep someone out based on nothing but speculation and rumor with no positive test, and no evidence other than "look at him, he must be on something," I'll be extremely disappointed.

I'd hate to turn this into another greenies vs. steroids thread, but does anyone actually believe that Ripken played all those games without using peformance enhancers?


oh god. guess you missed all of this;

Image
Image
The Miner Part 2
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Throwing rocks at The Cubby Bear.

Next

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buiviopaufamp, unioreimi and 6 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Wednesday, Sep. 3
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Philadelphia at Atlanta
(12:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at St. Louis
(1:45 pm)
San Francisco at Colorado
(3:10 pm)
Washington at LA Dodgers
(3:10 pm)
Seattle at Oakland
(3:35 pm)
Boston at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Detroit at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
Cincinnati at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
NY Mets at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Toronto at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Milwaukee at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
LA Angels at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Texas at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Chi White Sox at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Arizona at San Diego
(10:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact