Israel vs. Hezbollah from an American who was in Israel - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2015 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to General Talk

Israel vs. Hezbollah from an American who was in Israel

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby TheRock » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:17 am

Absolutely Adequate wrote:The problem isn't Israel's defending itself. The problem is that Israel crossed a line from defending themselves to indescriminately killing civilians.


"Indescriminately"? Maybe we disagree on just exactly what that word means. I'd say that's what Hezbollah is doing by firing missiles at major population centers. You could also say that's what Hezbollah is doing is by intentionally positioning any strategic military targets within Lebanese population centers. How exactly are you applying it to what Israel has done? And forget not you were going to tell us all how Isreal should be handling this that would be more to your liking.
Image
TheRock
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3055
(Past Year: 6)
Joined: 16 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: America's Heartland

Postby Absolutely Adequate » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:27 am

TheRock wrote:
Absolutely Adequate wrote:The problem isn't Israel's defending itself. The problem is that Israel crossed a line from defending themselves to indescriminately killing civilians.


"Indescriminately"? Maybe we disagree on just exactly what that word means. I'd say that's what Hezbollah is doing by firing missiles at major population centers. You could also say that's what Hezbollah is doing is by intentionally positioning any strategic military targets within Lebanese population centers. How exactly are you applying it to what Israel has done? And forget not you were going to tell us all how Isreal should be handling this that would be more to your liking.


I'm glad you asked.

And notice above that I am in no way defending Hezbollah - I'm simply condemning Israel for their role in the current situation.

What they should've done: Immediately bombed the area where they believed Hezbollah is centered. Do this with the express written permission of the Lebanese government, who would be under intense international pressure to agree. Get some of the Lebanese governement to get into the area and free the soldiers. Arrest those who planned and executed this atrocity.

Call it a day.
Absolutely Adequate
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 5000
Joined: 6 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Not here.

Postby TheRock » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:24 am

Absolutely Adequate wrote:I'm glad you asked.

And notice above that I am in no way defending Hezbollah - I'm simply condemning Israel for their role in the current situation.

What they should've done: Immediately bombed the area where they believed Hezbollah is centered. Do this with the express written permission of the Lebanese government, who would be under intense international pressure to agree. Get some of the Lebanese governement to get into the area and free the soldiers. Arrest those who planned and executed this atrocity.

Call it a day.


That does sound good. Except. The Lebanese government is in a precarious situation itself. They have (well, had) little to no control over the entire Southern half of their country - where Hezbollah had taken root. What you describe is most likely impossible, the Lebanese gov't had no idea where Hezbollah was or where those responsible for the kidnapping were hiding out. More importantly, they were at great risk of civil war if such an event were to take place. Aiding Israel in an attack against Muslims? They most certainly would not have cooperated. At least not publicly. Actually, we don't know that they didn't. Running Hezbollah out of town might be the best favor Israel could do for the Lebanese government.
Image
TheRock
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 3055
(Past Year: 6)
Joined: 16 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: America's Heartland

Postby RugbyD » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:31 am

AA, I think you're being a bit naive here, which surprises me given your history. Hezbollah only exists as a significant military power because the Lebanese government is relatively ineffectual. You also put Israel in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation and then excoriate them for doing something, namely defending themselves. A death that results from legitimate self-defense is no problem at all. Hezbollah has given Israel a choice: You die or me and this stranger die. I'd kill the innocent stranger and the Islamofascist every time.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Postby AcidRock23 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:52 am

The timeline on this went

1) Palestinians protesting state of affairs as usual.

2) Israelis react in usual manner

3) Palestinians achieve improbable result of capturing a solder

4) Israel reacts in heavy handed manner, decapitating Palestinian government, blowing up civic institutions, power, etc.

5) Hezbollah notes the reaction and ALSO kidnaps a soldier, pretty much playing the Israelis, even though you would think that they would know that the IDF will likely pound them to smithereens.

I don't think that the Cuba analogy works b/c Cuba is a highly centralized, one-party state whereas Hezbollah and Hamas are both organizations of organizations, employing a cellular organizational structure for security purposes.

I have not seen any allegations, either from Israel or the US or anyone else that they have any evidence (a PowerPoint presentation?) that Hezbollah and/ or Hamas planned this from the top down, issued orders to their troops to capture soldiers so that they can do a prisoner exchange. They simply got 'lucky' and are using the prisoners to push the Israelis to action. And, the other thing about Cuba is that even though their forces are largely equipped w/ old Soviet weapons, they are likely to be quite a bit better than Katyushas, the Rick Ankiel of missles.

In invading, I am not seeing how the Israelis are really going to win, they have not won any sort of friends amongst the Arabs or the key party-- the Lebanese governement-- who also have reason to dislike Hezbollah's presence in southern Lebanon. The automatic response of kidnapping = bombing does not get them anything that Israel needs.

Whereever they end up drawing the border, Hezbollah will survive intact and will likely come up with a new plan to achieve their goals. Israel could let quite a bit of wind out of the sails of Hezbollah and Hamas by negotiating with the Palestinian nation but, since they insist on bludgeoning them every time some goofballs blow stuff up, there is not really any way for Israel to work towards building a responsible government outside of their own in the region. It may be that the situation is not resolveable and that no one will ever stop this stuff from going on but the approach currently being used has not worked in the past and, in terms of security, Israel while powerful still has to keep looking over their shoulder instead of into the future.
AcidRock23
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterEagle Eye
Posts: 4170
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Champaign, IL

Previous

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2015 MLB season starts in 11:25 hours
(and 90 days)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact