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Israel vs. Hezbollah from an American who was in Israel

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Postby Mills13 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:46 pm

cubsfan,

Acidrock has gone against my opinion several times but he doesn't get censored. You got censored because you cussed when describing Israel defending itself against Hezbollah. Just wanted to point it out.
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Postby RugbyD » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:54 pm

quoth the page top:

the page top wrote:No spittin', no swearin', no instigatin'...

details, details. pish tosh! ;-7
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Postby IllinoisBandit » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:31 am

Fact: There are less than 15 million Jews in the world today, compared to over 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Islamic.


There's a large portion of the world that truly believes Isreal has no right to exist and how much longer they willingly allow it to is definately in question.

Isreal would be wise to take the high road in all situations. They have a right to defend their borders, sure, but they also have much different circumstances and obligations than most nations. They're certainly not making any new friends in the nieghborhood.
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Postby giants! » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:41 am

IllinoisBandit wrote:Fact: There are less than 15 million Jews in the world today, compared to over 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Islamic.


There's a large portion of the world that truly believes Isreal has no right to exist and how much longer they willingly allow it to is definately in question.

Isreal would be wise to take the high road in all situations. They have a right to defend their borders, sure, but they also have much different circumstances and obligations than most nations. They're certainly not making any new friends in the nieghborhood.


I'll let Mills address your post.
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Postby RugbyD » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:21 am

IllinoisBandit wrote:They're certainly not making any new friends in the nieghborhood.

Better to be a living enemy than a dead friend.
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Postby Mills13 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:34 pm

IllinoisBandit,

Israel does take the high road in all situations. Israel is the only country that has given land to people who have sworn it's destruction, gone to war with, or terrorize the people living in the country. I'm talking about giving the Sinai to Egypt and Gaza to the Palestinians. Have you seen America giving land recently? Also, Israel is the only place where Jews are considered the majority in the world. If you look at religions that have less people than Jews, you'll notice they have their own country and nobody complains. I'm pointing specifically to Southeast Asian countries where their religions are certainly minorities yet they still have a land to call their own. Back to security and taking the high road. In what other country are there 90 terror threats per week, 26 actually legitamate? I hope you're not going to drag the security fence into this argument because it has given the Israelis some sort of peace in Jerusalem and the surrounding neighborhoods. Also, how can they make friends in the Middle East when pretty much every country either doesn't recognize it or says that it should be wiped off the map. Besides Turkey, looking at the countries Israel has made peace with, Jordan and Egypt have both come out numerous times announcing they're displeasure with Israel and hope that the other Arab countries can do the job.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:10 am

Both sides are in the wrong here, I think. It's hard to wrap your mind around what's happened.

1. Hezbollah, during "Operation Truthful Promise," killed 8 Israeli soldiers and captured two more. During this time, they also indescriminately lobbed missles into a couple of towns in Israel. It was called "OTP" because the Hezbollah leader had promised to get 3 prisoners back from Israel.

2. Israel responded by threatening to send Lebanon back 20 years.

3. The Lebanese government said they had no knowledge of the attacks and condemned it.

4. On July 13th, Israel dropped some bombs and killed 2 civilians. No soldiers were killed.

5. On July 14th, Israel bombed quite a few more places in Lebanon, killing 60 civilians.

6. It goes on like this.

7. Last week, Israel bombed a bridge that cut off 100,000 civilians from food and medical supplies.

8. The EU and the United Nations have condemned Israel for their disproportionate response to the attack.


My Conclusion:

Israel has a right to defend themselves, but not to inflict needless death on a population for simply living near suspected Hezbollah hideouts.

My worry:

That this will lead us even closer to WWIII - a battle between Muslim nations and the West. Neither side seems entirely right or entirely wrong here. That's why this is so tricky. It's not like the fight against the Nazis where you know immediately which side is doing wrong. It seems to me that extremists have some control of the government of both Israel and Lebanon and neither side wants to rest until they get all-out war.

I've been glad this hasn't been discussed yet. But I do think you need to distrust anyone who says either side is completely in the right in this case.

(A student (Larry) in my class sucker punched another boy (Darryl). So Darryl knocked Larry out. While Larry lay there unconscious, Darryl kept kicking Larry. Broke his ribs. Kicked him in the face. Went after his mother.

Who is right in this situation? Nobody.
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Postby TheRock » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:46 am

Absolutely Adequate wrote:Both sides are in the wrong here, I think. It's hard to wrap your mind around what's happened.

1. Hezbollah, during "Operation Truthful Promise," killed 8 Israeli soldiers and captured two more. During this time, they also indescriminately lobbed missles into a couple of towns in Israel. It was called "OTP" because the Hezbollah leader had promised to get 3 prisoners back from Israel.

2. Israel responded by threatening to send Lebanon back 20 years.

3. The Lebanese government said they had no knowledge of the attacks and condemned it.

4. On July 13th, Israel dropped some bombs and killed 2 civilians. No soldiers were killed.

5. On July 14th, Israel bombed quite a few more places in Lebanon, killing 60 civilians.

6. It goes on like this.

7. Last week, Israel bombed a bridge that cut off 100,000 civilians from food and medical supplies.

8. The EU and the United Nations have condemned Israel for their disproportionate response to the attack.


My Conclusion:

Israel has a right to defend themselves, but not to inflict needless death on a population for simply living near suspected Hezbollah hideouts.

My worry:

That this will lead us even closer to WWIII - a battle between Muslim nations and the West. Neither side seems entirely right or entirely wrong here. That's why this is so tricky. It's not like the fight against the Nazis where you know immediately which side is doing wrong. It seems to me that extremists have some control of the government of both Israel and Lebanon and neither side wants to rest until they get all-out war.

I've been glad this hasn't been discussed yet. But I do think you need to distrust anyone who says either side is completely in the right in this case.

(A student (Larry) in my class sucker punched another boy (Darryl). So Darryl knocked Larry out. While Larry lay there unconscious, Darryl kept kicking Larry. Broke his ribs. Kicked him in the face. Went after his mother.

Who is right in this situation? Nobody.


Well, you've conveniently left off all that which preceded item 1 in your list - countless terrorist attacks against Israel from enemies who've made it their life purpose to destroy the "Zionist infidels." Of course Israel's response will kill civilians, that's how Hezbollah wants it. They cowardly hide amongst the civilian population so that if they are attacked they can drag dead children in front of the news cameras. Are you seriously saying you think Israel is just as wrong as Hezbollah in all this? What would you have Isreal do to make themselves less "wrong?" Ask the terrorists nicely to stop?
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:55 am

TheRock wrote:Well, you've conveniently left off all that which preceded item 1 in your list - countless terrorist attacks against Israel from enemies who've made it their life purpose to destroy the "Zionist infidels."


So if my student has been bullied before by others, he's free to overreact now?

I don't buy it.

African-Americans have been attacked, denigrated, and abused in the US since the beginning of the country. Is it OK for them to now kill the next racist to call them ******? Or do you think they should respond appropriately - some force but not overkill?

The problem isn't Israel's defending itself. The problem is that Israel crossed a line from defending themselves to indescriminately killing civilians.
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Postby Mills13 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:13 am

Absolutely Adequate wrote:
TheRock wrote:Well, you've conveniently left off all that which preceded item 1 in your list - countless terrorist attacks against Israel from enemies who've made it their life purpose to destroy the "Zionist infidels."


So if my student has been bullied before by others, he's free to overreact now?

I don't buy it.

African-Americans have been attacked, denigrated, and abused in the US since the beginning of the country. Is it OK for them to now kill the next racist to call them ******? Or do you think they should respond appropriately - some force but not overkill?

The problem isn't Israel's defending itself. The problem is that Israel crossed a line from defending themselves to indescriminately killing civilians.


Honestly, I don't think you understand how terrorism works. As it's been said numerous times, Israel is not indescriminately killing civillians, Hezbollah is and this isn't my blatant love towards Israel either speaking. This is actually understanding what's going on and not looking at war based on how many civillians Israel has killed.

First of all, very few areas in the north are actually political targets and those that are haven't been hit by Hezbollah. Israel on the other hand isn't blindly shooting rockets into civillian cities. While they do need to shoot rockets into civillian cities, they are hitting Hezbollah bases, military, etc. The leaflets should be enough of an example to show that they aren't trying to kill civillians. This is why I blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civillians, not Israel. If they actually isolated themselves like normal military bases do, there would be barely any Lebanese casualties however Hezbollah wants Israel to kill civillians.

Also, by comparing African Americans to Israel, you're simplifying the whole thing and basically making this about Jews, not about the country, which is a bad way to go about it. Try this, if Cuba launched Katyushas into America, there would certainly be daily bombings in the area and easily ruin the country. However nobody would call out the US on being disproportianate.

On that note, I'd like to make clear that I'm definitley not 100% in support of what Israel does and there are some things that I disagree with or think was a bad decision for Israel. However, this war is not one of them. I don't think any country is perfect but if you look at their record, they are clearly a better place to be in than any other country than the Middle East as the most Westernized country of that area.

...Dang I really gotta cut down on the long posts.
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