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Israel vs. Hezbollah from an American who was in Israel

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Postby giants! » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:12 pm

AcidRock23 wrote:
actually what they want is to get the land that the Israelis appropriated from Palestinians or at least discuss this, which the Israelis have refused.

The fact that reparations have been paid for the Holocaust might suggest reparations would be an 'angle' to provide a settlement for those Palestinians who can prove that they were 'wronged' and perhaps reach some kind of 'settlement' but security of Israel is always the primary concern and Palestinian 'rights' are dismissed. Not many of the Hezbollah dudes on CNN or wherever have really focused on this point very well so it might be crazy to suggest this angle but, in the historical accounts of the conflict I've read, this is the bottom line issue more than anything else.


You cannot be serious. Israel has already ceded west bank and Gaza area land including Gush Katif. There are plenty of Israeli arabs in Israel who work all over the place at inns, food stores, taxi drivers and in many other occupations. They are protected by the same rights that the Jews are protected with. Obviously, you have either never went to Israel or you were only there for a short amount of time.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:15 pm

Mills13 wrote:ACSguitar, Yes I am saying that American media is hyping the war up because I've been there and although it does affect everyone, it has not made a big impact on Israeli life style, or even Lebanese for that matter since most of the fighting is near the border.

Acidrock, I have a huge problem with what you just said about Israel basically taking land from the Palestinians because of the Holocaust. First of all, if you want to talk about taking land away, the Muslims lost their land to the Ottomans a long time ago however weren't exiled like the Jews were every time a new ruler came in. Also, when the Muslims had it, it was called Phillistine but that's really not the point. Fast forward to after WWI and the British take over Palestine from the Ottomans (notice how the Palestinians still aren't in control. It was actually the UN who made the first attempt at a Palestinian state in 1947 to live side by side with Jews and it obviously didn't work.

Also, there are Palestinians who actually work in Israel and have more rights there than in any other Arab country (Jordan). How are their rights dismissed? If you want to blame their tough situation, the rest of the Arab world shares blame with Israel. When Israel gave back the Sinai in 1967, they also proposed Gaza too because it was in Israel's best interest to no longer occupy a territory with such a small Jewish minority. The Egyptians said no because they don't recognize the Palestinians as a people and neither do Jordan.


Great post. ;-D ;-D
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Postby TheRock » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:31 pm

AcidRock23 wrote:actually what they want is to get the land that the Israelis appropriated from Palestinians or at least discuss this, which the Israelis have refused.


Really? I don't see that on their list of demands. Something about hundreds of terrorists in prison or something, you sure it's about land?

Any reason any terrorist group has ever given for their "holy war" has been complete BS. You really think there'd be peace if Israel gave up this or that? Don't be fooled, I'm shocked anyone still is. These people want Israel removed completely from the map and will not stop attacking them until they see their dream realized. They say so all the time if you listen.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:57 pm

TheRock wrote:
AcidRock23 wrote:actually what they want is to get the land that the Israelis appropriated from Palestinians or at least discuss this, which the Israelis have refused.


Really? I don't see that on their list of demands. Something about hundreds of terrorists in prison or something, you sure it's about land?

Any reason any terrorist group has ever given for their "holy war" has been complete BS. You really think there'd be peace if Israel gave up this or that? Don't be fooled, I'm shocked anyone still is. These people want Israel removed completely from the map and will not stop attacking them until they see their dream realized. They say so all the time if you listen.


What about the reasons the Israelis gave before THEY committed what would now be considered 'terrorist' acts in 1949? Kidnapping British soldiers who were hung to protest the British hanging terrorists? Bombing markets and hotels? The tactic of terror is an obvious conclusion when you are faced with overwhelming military power. Jeez, even George Washington would have been hung in 1776 had he been caught. Probably drawn and quartered as well.

I think that Israel would put the terrorists in a different position if they offered to recognize the other questions that are underneath the demand to release terrorists. They are not 'suprising' the Hezbollah w/ F16s but an offer to shell out some dough (w/ a quid pro quo attached...) might have some legs...
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Postby bleach168 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:04 pm

Bleach,

I wouldn't say that the UN is at all in support of Israel. I would say the UN in general is probably the most out of touch with this conflict and I blame them along with a few things Hezbollah does that I've heard of but haven't been confirmed to influence news coverage. The only countries in support of Israel right now are Turkey, the US, and depending on the day England. Just read what the UN has said in the past few weeks and you'll see what I mean.

Also, if you want to use the fact that Lebanon is deploying 15,000 troops to the border as a way to show they don't want this to go on, don't buy it. The IDF reported several missle attacks by C-802 missles guided by ground-based radar along with SAM systems. These are much more complex than the typical Hezbollah missles. However, the Lebanese army has these so you'd have to think they are getting some closed-door help from Lebanon as well even though Hezbollah is victimizing Lebanon.


Well, Israel did accidentally hit a UN outpost killing four UN soldiers. The UN wasn't quite so sure it was accidental, so they may have said a few harsh things. Still, the UN strongly supports the disarming of Hezbollah. Both sides have the same goals.

As for Lebanon helping Hezbollah, the connection you're trying to make is unproven. I've also heard reports that it was 100 Iranians who launched the missile for Hezbollah. I don't know the whole truth and I'm not sure the IDF know either. I suspect there may be a few Lebanese individuals who are sympathetic towards Hezbollah's cause and may go out of their way to support them, but the Lebanese government has nothing to gain from supporting Hezbollah.
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Postby Omaha Red Sox » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:15 pm

I can't believe I just now got around to reading this thread. I think my new favorite poster here is Mills13. Sorry acs.

Great points made and very nice to hear it from someone who has seen it first hand. There was a USA Today a week or so ago that had grotesque pictures of the 'horror' Israel is inflicting upon Lebanon. I couldn't believe the people at my work who were accusing Israel of unnecessarily firing upon Lebanon. Basically criticizing a country for defending themselves. These same people were gung-ho for us taking out Al-Qaeda after 9-11.

I completely support Israel for defending itself, salute them for fighting the right way, and pray those Hezbollah/Iran bastards get what they deserve.

Also...giants!.... ;-D
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Postby reynolds80 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:18 pm

It is in Hizbollah's and Hamas' written charters that their ultimate goal is to obliterate Israel. Israel's land concessions of the West Bank and Gaza have not caused either group to change their stance. To me that speaks volumes.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:24 pm

reynolds80 wrote:It is in Hizbollah's and Hamas' written charters that their ultimate goal is to obliterate Israel. Israel's land concessions of the West Bank and Gaza have not caused either group to change their stance. To me that speaks volumes.


part of the reason that is the case is that radical Jewish settlers have continued moving into those areas. Which is certainly brave in a way but how does that affect the peace process? There are quite a few wing nuts on both sides of these issues. I do agree that Hezbollah are not very pleasant in their tactics however I am leery of getting too jazzed up saying that the Israelis are entirely innocent of any wrongdoing or intransigence in this situation.
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Very Upset

Postby cubsfan18 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:57 pm

I recently made a post on this thread which happened to disagree with what is the typical "American" view of always cuddling up with Israel and acting as its parent. My post was a little controversial, I'll admit, but it was in no way offensive to anybody. It was simply bringing up the other side of the story that perhaps Israel shouldn't be bombing countries because a terrorist organization running that country has kidnapped a few civilians.

Apparently, however, that view is not accepted in this forum, either, as my post has been deleted - probably by an administrator or moderator. I'm sad to see that the world (even fantasy baseball in this case) has become so polarized. If at all possible, I would like some sort of explanation of why this happened. If it rather not be posted here, please e-mail it to me. If you're a moderator, then you have access to my address. Also, what's with this green little bar next to my name now?

It's just sad really that only one opinion is valued on this website.
GO CUBBIES!!!!!! Next year is finally here!
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Re: Very Upset

Postby giants! » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:23 pm

cubsfan18 wrote:I recently made a post on this thread which happened to disagree with what is the typical "American" view of always cuddling up with Israel and acting as its parent. My post was a little controversial, I'll admit, but it was in no way offensive to anybody. It was simply bringing up the other side of the story that perhaps Israel shouldn't be bombing countries because a terrorist organization running that country has kidnapped a few civilians.

Apparently, however, that view is not accepted in this forum, either, as my post has been deleted - probably by an administrator or moderator. I'm sad to see that the world (even fantasy baseball in this case) has become so polarized. If at all possible, I would like some sort of explanation of why this happened. If it rather not be posted here, please e-mail it to me. If you're a moderator, then you have access to my address. Also, what's with this green little bar next to my name now?

It's just sad really that only one opinion is valued on this website.


Well, your post must have been a little offensive since AcidRock's posts havent been deleted or edited
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