What does the term "Most Valuable Player" mean??? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

What does the term "Most Valuable Player" mean???

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby jdh » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:01 am

The problem is, an award for the best hitter would never work, because numbers don't compare equally; they are affected by what ballpark a hitter plays his home games in, and the lineup around him. For example, what if one year Helton and Pujols have literally identical stats, with Helton having a slight edge in home runs. Clearly, at least part of Helton's numbers would be inflated by playing at Coors Field, so do you take the numbers at face value, or try to adjust them for ballpark factors? Also, like it or not, players hitting stats are not entirely isolated and individual. The batting average and home runs are the only two stats that a hitter solely controls. RBIs and runs are measures of players getting on base in front of the hitter and knocking him in behind the hitter. The only way to fairly evaluate that would be to ignore RBIs and runs and just look at average and homers when evaluating hitters.
jdh
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2760
Joined: 5 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Halifax, NS

Postby Madison » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:16 am

jdh wrote:But even if you look at most valuable in the league, it would still be the player that is most valuable to his or her team. After all baseball is a team sport, and winning, not compiling individual statistics is the object. I don't think anyone could argue that the Giants would be nowhere without Bonds, making him the clear MVP.

Pujols is obviously the fantasy MVP though, but there's a huge difference between fantasy and real life.


Again, I disagree. Look at last year's AL MVP race. Sure, Tejada was valuable to the A's, but if you swapped Tejada and Arod, the A's would have done a lot better and the Rangers would have done a lot worse. Arod was more valuable across the board than Tejada, but they gave it to Tejada anyway. Makes absolutely no sense to take the award from the person that deserves it simply because his team has no pitching. The player can't control the pitching staff. He also can't be expected to drive in 6 runs a game when his pitcher's combined era's are around 5.

Why not look at it without names:

Player A: .300 avg, 57 hr, 142 rbi, 125 r, 9 steals, 87 bb, .392 obp, .623 slg, 1.015 ops

Player B: .308 avg, 34 hr, 131 rbi, 108 r, 7 steals, 38 bb, .354 obp, .508 slg, .861 ops

Which player is more valuable to a team? Forget pitching, win/loss record, and playoffs. Judging by the numbers, who is more valuable? It's player A, no doubt, no question at all. Well, those are Arod's numbers towering over Tejada's. Arod was robbed blind last year and punished because of a lack of pitching. That's not what the award was designed for. The award was not designed to be given to the Most Valuable Player Who Got Their Team To The Playoffs. It is given to the League's Most Valuable Player regardless of where the team finishes. It even states on the ballot that the player's team DOES NOT have to make the playoffs for the player to win the award. It's a shame in baseball when the best is not recognized because the voters are blind to any team that doesn't make the playoffs even though they are told that it doesn't matter.

So for the record yet again:

Most Valuable Player Who Got His Team To The Playoffs=Bonds
National League's Most Valuable Player=Pujols

The American league is still too close to call.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby jdh » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:27 am

Looking purely at the numbers between Tejada and ARod is a little deceiving, because there's other factors in play. For one thing, Tejada put up his numbers despite having a very weak supporting cast other than Chavez, while ARod was hitting 3rd or cleanup in one of the most potent offenses in baseball. Because Tejada has so much weaker lineup protection, the numbers he put up last year are just as impressive as ARod's. Second, ARod played his home games at the best hitter's park in the AL, while Tejada played at arguably the best pitcher's park in the AL. That accounts for at least a good part of the disparity in home runs.

Take a look at ARod's home away/splits last year .323 average at home with 33 HR, .277 average on the road with 24 HR. Like Helton in Colorado, ARod's stats are at least somewhat ballpark inflated, and really if you compare the road version of ARod with Tejada, the numbers are close to identical.

Since with ballpark and lineup issues taken into account, Tejada's performance was comparable with ARod's if not better, it makes sense to look at intangibles, such as the fact that he caught fire and single handedly carried the A's offense from a lousy first half to 100+ wins in the second half. It's alot harder to put up those kinds of numbers in constant clutch, pressure situations than it is to pad your numbers up when all games are meaningless after May.
jdh
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2760
Joined: 5 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Halifax, NS

Postby Madison » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:32 am

So Arod was punished because he has better hitters around him and a better park for hitters?

I guess Oakland's fantastic pitching along with Eric Chavez didn't help the big second half streak for Oakland last year either, huh?

I'm not trying to be arguementative, I just feel like Arod was robbed last year and it seems like Pujols will be robbed this year. Irritates me when the best players get overlooked for no real reason.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby eftda » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:38 am

Pay Rod should have won it last year.


arod* :-o
eftda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 9790
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby jdh » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:38 am

I just think there's a difference in statistical value and real life value, and ARod and Pujols may have been statistically the best players in the league, and the best fantasy players, but statistics clearly don't fully translate to real life value.

If clearly ARod's numbers are padded by lineup support and a hitter friendly ballpark, then why should all of the other players in the league be punished because their ballparks put them at a statistical disadvantage?

Maybe if they wanted to go to a best overall hitter award, they could fairly do it by having a ballpark multiplier, based on past stats that they use to fairly compare stats. IE, make 1.25 the multiplier for Dodger Stadium, and 0.75 for Coors Field.

That way, if Helton hit 40 HR and Shawn Green hit 30 next year, Green's would work out to 38 HR and Helton's to 30 HR, based on ballpark factors.
jdh
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2760
Joined: 5 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Halifax, NS

Postby wrveres » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:44 am

jdh wrote:That way, if Helton hit 40 HR and Shawn Green hit 30 next year, Green's would work out to 38 HR and Helton's to 30 HR, based on ballpark factors.


Ouch ... poor Todd .. :-) he gets no love ... consistent as hell. But just no love. don't worry Todd, I'll "Suck it up and suffer with ya" :-)
25                "Love the Padres"
Rafael

Dodgers FAIL|Mets FAIL|Canada FAIL
wrveres
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe Musketeer
Posts: 31630
(Past Year: 1147)
Joined: 2 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Madison » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:51 am

If you add in a ballpark factor, then you also have to add in an opposing pitcher factor. The Rangers play Seattle and Oakland all the time. Pretty good pitching the last few years. So with that Arod would get a big plus while Tejada and Boone would get a big minus because they get to hit off the Ranger's stinky pitching.

They can fiddle with all the itty bitty details all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of who the best players are. They need to quit making excuses for overlooking the best and just give them the award that they deserve.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby eftda » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:53 am

another point: can a pitcher win the MVP--- what about a closer?
eftda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 9790
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:54 am

jdh wrote:Looking purely at the numbers between Tejada and ARod is a little deceiving, because there's other factors in play. For one thing, Tejada put up his numbers despite having a very weak supporting cast other than Chavez, while ARod was hitting 3rd or cleanup in one of the most potent offenses in baseball. Because Tejada has so much weaker lineup protection, the numbers he put up last year are just as impressive as ARod's. Second, ARod played his home games at the best hitter's park in the AL, while Tejada played at arguably the best pitcher's park in the AL.

Since with ballpark and lineup issues taken into account, Tejada's performance was comparable with ARod's if not better


Sure Arod had a slightly better park, but i dont buy that argument. Why? Arods OPS+ was 152 to Tejadas 122. OPS+ is park adjusted. Second, NAC played a hitters park last year. The hr index was 120. 100 is neutral. Oakland hit 104 hrs at NAC to 79 away. Their opponents hit 61 at NAC compared to 62 away from NAC. Thats a combined 165 hrs at NAC last year versus 120 away from NAC. As far as lineups, Texas scored 890 runs, Oakland 884 runs, 6 less. Arod was better. He had 10 errors to Tejadas 19. Win shares incorporates defense along with offense. Arod blew the al away in win shares last year. I know i am probably alone on this, but i dont think Tejada should have been in anyones top 3 vote last year.
HOOTIE
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe Ranker
Posts: 15106
(Past Year: 303)
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pearl Jam country, right next door to Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains.

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Abrekilore and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Friday, Apr. 18
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Toronto at Cleveland
(2:20 pm)
LA Angels at Detroit
(7:05 pm)
Milwaukee at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
St. Louis at Washington
(7:05 pm)
Miami at Miami
(7:08 pm)
indoors
NY Yankees at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Seattle at Seattle
(7:10 pm)
Atlanta at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
Baltimore at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Chi White Sox at Texas
(8:05 pm)
Minnesota at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Philadelphia at Colorado
(8:40 pm)
Houston at Oakland
(10:05 pm)
Arizona at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)
San Francisco at San Diego
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact