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Points for Fielding (plus 15 best/worst to argue about)

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Points for Fielding (plus 15 best/worst to argue about)

Postby lsommerer » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:08 pm

I'm in a points league, and we've been tinkering with the points we use over they years to try to strike a balance between good power hitters, contact hitters, defensive players and base runners. We'd like for each type of player to be valueable on our teams, and --of course-- players that do more than one of those things well to be more valuable.

For fielding we started of simply counting errors as -5pts (HR:4). We are well aware of the problems with errors, but wanted to count something and that was easy to count. After doing this for a while we realized that we really needed to count chances somehow, because our middle infielders were really getting hammered disproportunately by errors.

But different positions accumulate different fielding stats as different rates, and trying to come up with something that was position neutral lead us to this for fielding points:

Fielding = (Put Outs / 40) + (Infield Assists / 5) + (Double Plays Turned / 4) + (Outfield Assists * 5) + (Errors * -8)

This numbers are a bit of a compromise as we also wanted to limit the number of decimal points displayed by sportsline.

Using 2005 stats, the top 15 defenseive players were:
<blockquote><pre>Wells, Vernon CF TOR 69.575<br>Floyd, Cliff LF NYM 66.075<br>Grudzielanek, Mark 2B KC 60.125<br>Teixeira, Mark 1B TEX 55.825<br>Counsell, Craig 2B ARI 54.825<br>Hudson, Orlando 2B ARI 53.750<br>Kennedy, Adam 2B ANA 49.900<br>Jones, Andruw CF ATL 48.325<br>Ellis, Mark 2B OAK 44.100<br>Suzuki, Ichiro RF SEA 43.925<br>Vizquel, Omar SS SF 43.250<br>Roberts, Brian 2B BAL 43.150<br>Helton, Todd 1B COL 42.125<br>Casey, Sean 1B PIT 42.025</pre></blockquote>And the bottom 15 were:
<blockquote><pre>Boone, Aaron 3B CLE -78.175<br>Ramirez, Aramis 3B CHC -79.85<br>Lugo, Julio SS TB -80.65<br>Berroa, Angel M. SS KC -83.85<br>Atkins, Garrett 3B COL -85.05<br>Gonzalez, Alex S. SS PHI -85.65<br>Inge, Brandon 3B DET -96.725<br>Cantu, Jorge L. 2B TB -100.05<br>Bell, David 3B PHI -100.175<br>Teahen, Mark 3B KC -103.375<br>Weeks, Rickie 2B MIL -104.95<br>Wright, David 3B NYM -117.675<br>Glaus, Troy 3B TOR -121.975<br>Adams, Russ SS TOR -124.35<br>Renteria, Edgar SS ATL -136.725</pre></blockquote>What I'm hoping for are a few other people's opinions on whether these numbers seem reasonable and maybe some thoughts on how other leagues try to incorporate fielding.

--Lloyd Sommerer
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Postby DK » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:46 pm

Your methods look good but at first glance the results don't pass the laugh test. Any metric which has Cliff Floyd 2nd in fielding in MLB is not a worthy one. There are other problems with it as well, but that's the big one to start with.
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Postby acsguitar » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:51 pm

The problem is that an OF will make alot less errors then an IF due to his position.
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Postby DK » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:55 pm

I'm also wondering how catchers fare, being that no catcher showed up on either list.

Edit - the bottom 15 is entirely 2B, 3B, and SS... That doesn't make sense.
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Postby lsommerer » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:02 pm

DK wrote:Your methods look good but at first glance the results don't pass the laugh test. Any metric which has Cliff Floyd 2nd in fielding in MLB is not a worthy one. There are other problems with it as well, but that's the big one to start with.


That probably has a little to do with just taking last year. Here's the last three years average:
<pre><br>Polanco, Placido 2B DET 58.575<br>Suzuki, Ichiro RF SEA 48.675<br>Jenkins, Geoff RF MIL 41.375<br>Castillo, Luis 2B MIN 40.925<br>Hidalgo, Richard RF BAL 39.625<br>Olerud, John 1B BOS 37.625<br>Konerko, Paul 1B CHW 36.8<br>Roberts, Brian 2B BAL 36.6<br>Jones, Andruw CF ATL 35.725<br>Rios, Alex RF TOR 35.35<br>Johnson, Kelly LF ATL 34.35<br>Loretta, Mark 2B BOS 33.775<br>Helton, Todd 1B COL 33.025<br>Hudson, Orlando 2B ARI 32.85<br>Lee, Derrek 1B CHC 31.575<br>Kennedy, Adam 2B ANA 30.45<br>Francoeur, Jeff RF ATL 28.875<br>Grudzielanek,Mark 2B KC 28.5<br>Counsell, Craig 2B ARI 28.475
...
<br>Morse, Mike SS SEA -57.475<br>Batista, Tony 3B MIN -57.95<br>Boone, Aaron 3B CLE -61.325<br>Matsui, Kaz 2B COL -62.65<br>Furcal, Rafael SS LA -63.525<br>Cantu, Jorge L. 2B TB -63.8<br>Mueller, Bill 3B LA -64.4<br>Hall, Bill SS MIL -65.65<br>Tracy, Chad OF ARI -70.15<br>Lopez, Felipe SS WAS -70.425<br>Munson, Eric 3B HOU -71.175<br>Helms, Wes 3B FLA -71.775<br>Lugo, Julio SS TB -75.5<br>Glaus, Troy 3B TOR -76.3<br>Wigginton, Ty 3B TB -78.475<br>Adams, Russ SS TOR -80.45<br>Bell, David 3B PHI -85.05<br>Blake, Casey RF CLE -88.575<br>Wright, David 3B NYM -91.45<br>Berroa, Angel M. SS KC -94.55<br>Ramirez, Aramis 3B CHC -102.65<br>Teahen, Mark 3B KC -103.375
</pre>
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Postby lsommerer » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:12 pm

DK wrote:I'm also wondering how catchers fare, being that no catcher showed up on either list.

the bottom 15 is entirely 2B, 3B, and SS... That doesn't make sense.


Here are the top and bottom 5 catchers (this is 3 year average too)<blockquote><pre><br>Matheny, Mike C SF 25.425<br>Miller, Damian C MIL 16.5<br>Ausmus, Brad C HOU 14.825<br>Snyder, Chris C ARI 9.75<br>Wilson, Dan C SEA 7.075
...
Zaun, Gregg C TOR -35.65<br>Closser, J.D. C COL -35.85<br>LaRue, Jason C CIN -35.925<br>Olivo, Miguel C FLA -42.375<br>Doumit, Ryan C PIT -50.65
</pre></blockquote>Yes, 2B, 3B and SS get screwed here because they (as a group) always have more errors. But they were getting screwed more when we were just counting errors. One reason we went to this was to correct that somewhat. Probably the only way to really do this and make sense would be to have different scoring for different positions, but that might be more trouble than its worth.

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Postby DK » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:13 pm

The bottom is still all 2B/3B/SS, Casey Blake was a 3B 2 out of the last 3 years IIRC.

And the average fielder can't be 0, right? It has to be negative...
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Postby lsommerer » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:24 pm

DK wrote:The bottom is still all 2B/3B/SS, Casey Blake was a 3B 2 out of the last 3 years IIRC.

And the average fielder can't be 0, right? It has to be negative...


Here's the breakdown by points:
<pre>>50 7<br>40 to 50 9<br>30 to 40 13<br>20 to 30 31<br>10 to 20 57<br>0 to 10 197<br>-10 to 0 122<br>-20 to -10 62<br>-30 to -20 43<br>-40 to -30 25<br>-50 to -40 15<br>-60 to -50 12<br><-70 19</pre>
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